38 comments

  • zuminator 1 hour ago
    Microsoft is making Windows into the Nigerian Prince of operating systems. Classically, Nigerian Prince scams are so obvious that they weed out all the people smart enough to avoid being swindled, leaving the easy pickings to be plucked without much effort.

    Windows is the same. By Microsoft removing all bypass measures that make it tolerable, their remaining user base will just end up being people who don't care about security and privacy, people who won't complain about being inundated with ads, AI, and bingware, people who have no idea that a modern operating system should be fast, customizable, and open. That 90% customer base is easy to fleece with 10% effort, so why bother with the 10% base that will require 90% effort?

    • faust201 11 minutes ago
      My guess is that they are focused only on to cashcow -> enterprise, office, (and all Copilot BS). Sadly very few of IT people I know of move to Linux or macOS for this specific reason. Just like XP users tolerated the tons of systray, toolbar crap - most are tolerating AI shit. To be fair to even knowledgeable people, most are happy to live their live on Smartphone (+ maybe tablet). Most get a corporate laptop from work.

      Or gamers that are already used to Windows. So inertia.

  • wewewedxfgdf 6 hours ago
    Microsoft could have made Windows:

    able to run on any hardware

    free for basic usage, paid for commercial usage

    lightweight, simple, stripped of all cruft and extras

    consistent in it's UI and cleaned up from 40 years of inconsistencies

    But they didn't - so people are looking for alternatives.

    • spankibalt 6 hours ago
      As much as I like many Windows versions, the corporate idiocy of the company behind the OS is indeed something else.
      • cedws 4 hours ago
        I get the impression that a lot of the old guard are long gone from the Windows team or have no influence. Raymond Chen is still around but not sure how much he actually works on Windows day to day.
        • ecshafer 4 hours ago
          Microsoft was founded in 1975. 1981 was the first DOS release. 1985 was the first release of Windows. 40 years working on windows is a long time, I would be surprised if anyone for the original team is left at this point. Even someone joining out of college in 2000 is now 25 years in, is 57, and could feasibly be retiring....
          • tw04 2 hours ago
            I don’t think that math is quite right. Graduating from college in 2000 would be 47, not 57 unless they were 32 when they graduated college.
          • cedws 3 hours ago
            True. I meant to say that it feels like the people who know what's going on have long departed and it's junior web developers left to pick up the pieces.
          • xmddmx 4 hours ago
            You mean 1990. Someone graduating college in 1990 would have been about 21. That was 35 years ago, so they would be about 56 in 2025.

            Math is hard.

            • Spooky23 2 hours ago
              Weird flex of pedantry even for HN.

              Says who? I did a gap year service project and graduated at age 23. My business partner did a 3-2 program and graduated at 23.

              Plus, anyone working as an engineer then has a 8 figure net worth and the overwhelming majority moved on long ago.

            • GenerocUsername 3 hours ago
              Cmon man, it's a comment not a research paper. Off by one isn't worth a follow up snark
              • cwnyth 29 minutes ago
                Off by 10+1. Someone who graduated college in 2000 = 25 + 22 (4 years of college from 18) = 47, not 57, and not anywhere close to the retirement age. It might be pedantry, but the original comment should have said 1990, not 2000.
              • sokoloff 44 minutes ago
                Their main point was it is off by 10; then they introduced an additional confusing question of “is it off by 10, 11, or 12?”
        • p1dda 2 hours ago
          The toxic culture from Gates will never go away
      • neilv 4 hours ago
        Never ascribe to stupidity, that which has been proven to be malice.
        • grugagag 4 hours ago
          Yeah, they delivered whatever they delivered on purpose. Sometimes I imagine MS is playingn Lemmings with their users to reach their corporate goals.
        • Ferret7446 4 hours ago
          I doubt the various shitty parts of Windows (not the forced AI/whatever) is due to malice, unless you mean employees maliciously trying to destroy the company.
          • yndoendo 4 hours ago
            I would say the malice is from management, investors, and product leads. Developers just do what they are told. Microsoft is choosing enshitification versus quality. CEO needs to pump that stock and having enterprise locked into without alternatives helps them.

            I grew up with Microsoft and now you have to pay me to use their products. I would never choose their OS for product hosting. Even their embedded / IoT is trying to force a Microsoft account and push against local user.

            • aunty_helen 3 hours ago
              Or are they trying to move users onto other platforms, more modern platforms that users are more comfortable paying for.

              Desktops existed before punching in your credit card numbers was a common thing, that history is hard to shrug.

              Xbox for gamers, mobile for everyone else and business editions of windows for the enterprise.

          • stuartd 4 hours ago
        • alex1138 2 hours ago
          This

          Minimum 50% of cases (in anything). Probably higher

      • alex1138 5 hours ago
        This is true with a lot of companies. If you made people actually use their own product (do they?!) maybe they'd think twice before doing boneheaded things

        Then again, I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem

        • userbinator 4 hours ago
          If you made people actually use their own product (do they?!)

          Yes, they do. Unfortunately even MS employees are powerless to do anything about the crap that gets shoved into Windows by other employees working at the company, and the ones who complain about it are quietly shown the door or have already left of their own will, leaving only those who are completely apathetic or...

          Then again, I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem

          Exactly. That and the desire to remain in the country --- part of the reason why companies like H-1Bs so much is because they are going to be far more docile and less willing to resist doing things they feel are wrong.

        • yoyohello13 5 hours ago
          I remember I was at a Python conference some years ago and every Microsoft dev I saw had a MacBook. So no, I don’t think they use their own product internally.
          • dmix 5 hours ago
            The only thing worse than work-from-office is mandatory work-on-windows.
            • jiggawatts 4 hours ago
              If only there was something Microsoft’s developers could do about that…
          • ethagnawl 4 hours ago
            As an aside, I used to know a number of MS heads who ran Windows on Mac Intel machines because they preferred the hardware (~2014 MBP) and/or because they ostensibly worked at Mac shops and were handed one upon entry.
            • matwood 3 minutes ago
              Long ago at this point when my job required windows, the best experience for me was running it in a VM on a MBP. Actually worked quite well since it was easy stop/start windows and segmented work off on its own.
            • badc0ffee 2 hours ago
              If I still had to use Windows I'd want a laptop with home/end/ins/del/pgup/pgdn keys, and alt/win in the right place.
              • eviks 22 minutes ago
                The last issue is solvd in software, the first one has a good workaround in software
        • gerdesj 4 hours ago
          "I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem"

          They don't make money (put bread on the table) by selling Windows any more. That is soooo 2000s.

          Income is from data mining and from subscriptions to cloudy offerings that are mostly MVP (Minimum Viable Product).

          Oh, and hyping their perceived value to the point that the term "meme stock" is no longer just a joke.

      • dismalaf 5 hours ago
        With the way the economy is going (some call it K-shaped) it's more profitable to squeeze as hard as you can and extract as much as possible out of whales versus trying to have mass market appeal. Azure, Office and Copilot will sustain them.

        Nvidia is doing something similar where they're just extracting as much as possible out of AI companies and not caring one bit about consumers.

        • Y_Y 5 hours ago
          Consumers need to remember how to wield a pitchfork
          • MattGaiser 4 hours ago
            The challenge is that consumers in the case of Windows don’t generally choose Windows. Someone else chooses it for them.
            • netsharc 1 hour ago
              The term cloud feudalism is not new, but now I'm thinking it feels like humanity is being dragged to the feudal ages because more and more everything happens online now. You want to work? Be a peasant for Uber Eats, they have all the power and you have none, they set the rules as they please and all you can do is grin and bear it, or try move from one feudal domain to another (i.e. work for a different delivery app).
          • xeonmc 3 hours ago
            That’s a funny way of spelling “guillotine”.
        • gruez 5 hours ago
          >With the way the economy is going (some call it K-shaped) it's more profitable to squeeze as hard as you can and extract as much as possible out of whales versus trying to have mass market appeal

          How does whatever microsoft is doing to windows line up with that?

          • ffsm8 5 hours ago
            Hmm, it does line up with that from my perspective too.

            It's just a different way to say "you're the product, not the customer" if you look at the statement from a neutral perspective - the whale being the actual customer, who changes all the time depending on what Microsoft MBAs think might have the highest potential value they can extract.

            • gruez 5 hours ago
              >the whale being the actual customer, who changes all the time depending on what Microsoft MBAs think might have the highest potential value they can extract.

              Who's the "whale" in this context? Windows users who subscribe to copilot? Enterprise? Advertisers?

          • dismalaf 4 hours ago
            Enterprises are the whales. Microsoft sells user management, Office, Copilot, Outlook, etc... all bundled together for more per seat per year than a consumer will spend or generate in the whole lifecycle of their device. Nevermind Azure.

            So consumers are mostly ignored, except as a testbed to shove AI and ads.

    • mips_avatar 3 hours ago
      The employees inside really wanted to build this. The company decided not to.
      • blastersyndrome 3 hours ago
        I'm not so sure about that. If Microsoft actually removed all the cruft, then they would need around 5% of the employees currently working on it. They'd all be unemployed.
    • ribosometronome 4 hours ago
      >free for basic usage, paid for commercial usage

      And lose all the OEM license money?

      • al_borland 4 hours ago
        Windows is now less than 10% of their revenue, last I saw. I think Windows is more valuable to keep people in the Microsoft ecosystem, than as a source of direct revenue.
      • wlesieutre 3 hours ago
        Do they make more money from OEM licenses, or from bombarding Windows users with OneDrive and Copilot 365 advertisements?
        • ProllyInfamous 2 hours ago
          What if it's actually the AI-derived "user profile," sold to advertisers/govts, after their mandatory bot scans all your drive.

          Just hypothetically... of course they're not actually doing this?

          ----

          Anywho, doesn't matter cause my Xeon went from Windows 10 to Linux, this year. Still rocking a Win7Pro Core2Duo (as my second favorite machine).

      • guidedlight 2 hours ago
        Perhaps Microsoft plans to bundle Windows into its "Microsoft 365" subscription for the consumer market.
      • relativeadv 4 hours ago
        won't someone think of the shareholders?
    • cookiengineer 2 hours ago
      Honestly Windows 7 was the best OS they ever built. It just went downwards from there, and they abandoned it essentially.

      I don't understand what's going on at Microsoft, but they leave huge stacks of money on the table. LTSC versions weren't "popular", they were the least worst option for a lot of industries. And now they kinda completely ignored all customer feedback.

      • hshdhdhj4444 2 hours ago
        XP SP2 was pretty good too.

        As was Windows NT & 2000 for their time.

        • hggjkggijg 1 hour ago
          Win2k is where it was at. It was also my last windows os ....
      • mike_d 1 hour ago
        Microsoft managed to make every other release of Windows good.

        95 good, NT 4 bad, 98 good, 98 SE bad, 2000 good, Me bad, XP good, Vista bad, 7 good...

        The plan with Windows 10 was to light their desktop market share on fire in the hopes they could see iPads in the distance and try to chase them. Windows 11 was codenamed "give your toxic ex a second chance."

    • slowmovintarget 2 hours ago
      That's an OS for the users.

      Windows is an OS for the people who use the users.

      • userbinator 1 hour ago
        Microsoft's slogan in the 90s was "where do you want to go today?"

        Now, it should be "where do we want you to go today?"

    • crm9125 4 hours ago
      Luckily Linux exists.
      • alex1138 3 hours ago
        I'll add, with no disrespect intended to BSD, because they're serious OSes, but GPL is also a really good thing to have
        • oska 2 hours ago
          Yes, the GPL (by design) is what kept Linux from being embraced, extended and then extinguished
    • bigfatkitten 5 hours ago
      It could be a nice OS, if Microsoft didn’t go out of their way to make it awful.

      I run Active Directory at home, for various reasons. I’ve got Group Policy in a good enough shape now that I’m not terribly troubled by Microsoft’s enshittification but it took substantial effort to get there, and it requires some work to maintain.

    • zahlman 2 hours ago
      > consistent in it's UI and cleaned up from 40 years of inconsistencies

      ... While also maintaining their famous backwards compatibility?

    • dyauspitr 3 hours ago
      It’s not about giving you a clean experience, it’s about setting you up as a constant cash cow hooked into and paying for all their services.

      I hate adobes current business model and for that matter fusion360 as well. It’s all internet required bullshit but it’s making them tons of money and there are no viable alternatives.

    • ajsnigrutin 4 hours ago
      When did any manager get promoted for keeping software stable?

      Just look at google and their chat softwares... you either make something new, or someone else does and you're left behind... be it ads in their start menu, spyware "AI", or paid solitaire.

      • userbinator 4 hours ago
        When did any manager get promoted for keeping software stable?

        A few industries reward that. Telcos and other parts of critical infrastructure come to mind.

        • testing22321 3 hours ago
          I worked for a telco for four years. It was horrifically stupid and rewarded the dumbest possible outcomes.

          Is goal is increase revenue! Create project to roll out fibre to a new rural community. Sign up all 40 houses in that community at $100 a month.

          Project cost $10 mil.

          Bonuses and promotions for increased revenue!

          • ocdtrekkie 2 hours ago
            That pays for itself in 20 years and most of those customers won't have better choices in the next 50. The core of that infrastructure will probably oitlive most people on the team. Sounds like a good long term stable business.
    • 29athrowaway 5 hours ago
      That would require empathy.
    • jccx70 4 hours ago
      lol, what's your point really? alternatives exists since very long time.
  • robby_w_g 5 hours ago
    I put up with so much Windows crap over the years, and Windows 11 was the final straw. It’s not even the gaming OS anymore as Linux feels snappier and more stable for running games.
    • theandrewbailey 3 hours ago
      After using Linux just about everywhere else, I moved my main desktop/gaming rig to Linux about a year ago. (The last Windows install I have is my retro PC.)

      I work in e-waste recycling, and it's my first Windows-free job. A family friend called me for advice on her old decrepit laptop. I told her about my work "laptop": a Surface Pro tablet with Linux. I just sold one to her, partially on the security and privacy advantages of Linux.

      • ProllyInfamous 1 hour ago
        >I work in e-waste recycling

        How does one get into this, preferably without having to be a yardie for a few years (I'm an electrician with a degree in chemistry)?

        Fellow Win7Pro retro machiner.

    • darthg0d 5 hours ago
      This was me after decades of running Windows. I'm now firmly on Debian (13).
      • aspbee555 2 hours ago
        I have been running Deb 13 on my primary workstation for a couple months, just as stable as Debian 12 I was running for years on my primary. I am able to do all of my programming work, virtual win/mac for compiling and able to play every Steam game I try with zero problems (BG3, CyberPunk, etc), all from a $500 mini-pc. Even bluetooth has had zero issue (which is usually a problem/pita)
    • Joe_Boogz 4 hours ago
      Until Linux has an alternative to anticheat, gaming on Windows is still king.

      And until Linux implements similar abstractions in the Kernel akin to Filter Drivers in Windows, Linux will never have a proper anticheat.

      • haswell 4 hours ago
        I think “king” may be overstating it somewhat. While it’s true that there are some big titles with anticheat that won’t work on Linux, there are quite a few major titles that work fine, and in practice I’ve been able to use Linux as a gaming system for awhile now without issue. I primarily play Overwatch, The Finals, ARC Raiders, Rocket League and Age of Empires.

        I think the success of the Steam Deck has really helped the situation, and the titles that are broken because of anticheat are not important enough to me to keep a Windows system around.

        • kranke155 4 hours ago
          This is huge. I work in filmmaking and CG and a few apps still aren’t on Linux. I might just move anyway though. I’m so done with it.
      • mjevans 4 hours ago
        Linux has working EAC. Any software not working on Linux is a Policy decision by the seller, not lacking features on the buyer.

        Oh and rootkit level EAC? Expect that to go away on Windows too when MS finally gets sick of Crowdstrike and that ilk causing self inflicted Denial of Service attacks on whole economic sectors.

        • hedora 3 hours ago
          They can’t kick Crowdstrike out without permission from the EU.

          It’s one of the bigger failures of antitrust enforcement I can think of

          (I can think of much larger screw ups involving lack of antitrust enforcement, to be clear.)

      • drnick1 4 hours ago
        The anticheat needs to be server-side to be credible, i.e. the game should be designed to only provide the information that client needs for fair play. I know this isn't easy, but it should be the goal.
        • Dwedit 4 hours ago
          Client still needs to know coordinates of opponents and other objects that could be in their view within the next 200ms, and once the client knows those, a cheating client can reveal opponent positions. You can't enforce that server side without adding huge mandatory lag to all clients.
          • abuob 1 hour ago
            But you can detect serverside (at least probabilistically) if a user is abusing it to their advantage.

            Some Valve guy gave a great talk about their cheating detection a while back; I found it incredibly impressive: https://youtu.be/ObhK8lUfIlc (can't comment on their effectiveness these days, haven't played CS in a long time)

      • bmandale 4 hours ago
        This is begging the question. Games on linux lack kernel anticheat because linux isn't very popular. Once linux is popular enough, then they will figure out a way to do anti cheat on it in a way that they consider acceptable. Valve already considers VAC good enough, because they want to support linux. Anti cheat on windows works the way it does because that's what's available on windows, on linux they'll figure out some other way.
      • singpolyma3 4 hours ago
        Anticheat is sloppy engineering
      • wolvoleo 3 hours ago
        Not all gaming is multiplayer.

        But I know what you mean. Another niche that really doesn't go well on Linux is VR.

        • wlesieutre 3 hours ago
          Steam Frame coming this year, I’m sure Valve is throwing money at the Linux VR situation
      • myko 3 hours ago
        > Until Linux has an alternative to anticheat, gaming on Windows is still king.

        I'm glad none of the games that require this really appeal to me these days

    • XorNot 5 hours ago
      Anyone know if Helldivers 2 works on Linux now? Because I'd say if I can't stick with 10 much longer then I'm just going to format that partition.
      • robby_w_g 1 hour ago
        Funny enough, this is the game compatibility that convinced me that Linux was worthwhile switching over to.

        With Arch Linux + the nvidia-open package, the Linux desktop experience is miles better than when I last tried in 2017 with Ubuntu

      • dgunay 4 hours ago
        Yes: https://www.protondb.com/app/553850

        Personally I have been playing it on Arch Linux since release and it has always worked just fine, besides it being a deeply janky game regardless of OS.

        • ticoombs 3 hours ago
          Ditto. No issues at all that my friends did not experience as well. (Long download/patching times).
        • vips7L 3 hours ago
          “Crashes for me every 10 minutes into a game.”
      • yellowapple 3 hours ago
        It worked on Linux since basically day 1, though I haven't played it in awhile so who knows if things have broken since then.
      • nachexnachex 3 hours ago
        I've been playing it on linux since I started. Just run steam, install, Start.

        Happy diving.

  • TheJoeMan 3 hours ago
    This is not good to hear, at my work we have the production technicians activate the occasional Windows 7 PC via the phone. We do it this way as these are specialized embedded PC’s that won’t connect to the internet. Flippant comments to “just use Linux” are not understanding the realities of keeping 20yr old software in the medical, offshore drilling, etc industries.
    • epistasis 3 hours ago
      "Just use Windows" seems to be more problematic than "just use Linux" here. Though there is hope that WINE will reach enough feature parity for many applications, accessing external hardware is the hardest thing to emulate.

      Building products on top of Windows seems to limit the lifetime of the product to whatever support Microsoft seem to be willing to provide.

      The best time to migrate off Windows was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.

    • userbinator 3 hours ago
      Windows 7 activation was cracked long ago and you already paid MS for it, so I would just go that route.
    • inetknght 3 hours ago
      > Flippant comments to “just use Linux” are not understanding the realities of keeping 20yr old software in the medical, offshore drilling, etc industries.

      I make such comments. Tell me: what exactly is problematic about medical, offshore drilling, etc industries which makes it difficult or impossible to switch?

      ... wanna hire me to work on that? I am convinced that, whatever the cost is, it will be cheaper than using software on a very-outdated very-proprietary operating system for another couple of decades.

      • tsujamin 2 hours ago
        To name a few (presumably): drivers, proprietary protocols, vendor warranties/support, licensing/relicensing, paying you to do the work, waiting for the work to be done/tested, paying for workforce re-training, justifying this to management etc.

        All these reasons suck, but they’re all reality in one industry or another sadly.

        • tadfisher 2 hours ago
          It was the same reality 20 years ago when they ditched DOS for Windows XP. At least now it's far easier to run most things in a VM.
        • inetknght 1 hour ago
          > drivers

          Linux kernel is open source and really easy to read, and also fairly easy to write drivers for.

          > proprietary protocols

          I've written many network softwares, and proprietary protocols aren't difficult to me.

          > vendor warranties/support

          Fuck vendor lock-in. Move to Linux.

          > licensing/relicensing

          Fuck vendors.

          > paying you to do the work

          ...is cheaper than paying vendors.

          > waiting for the work to be done/tested

          Here, let me demonstrate that it works... with many many many automated tests.

          > * paying for workforce re-training*

          Not really important if it's well-done.

          > justifying this to management

          A lot of business management can't see past their own nose until it comes to money. Do some maths and show them the cost savings in a presentation. They'll listen.

          • kube-system 37 minutes ago
            These things are not as trivial as you think they are when that computer is connected to industrial equipment that costs millions of dollars, you have no test environment, the original vendor no longer exists, and any failure or downtime at best will cause millions in financial losses, and at worst will maim or kill people.

            The best option in these cases is to isolate the system from external networks to keep it secured and keep operating until the organization can afford a major capital expenditure to replace everything.

            • AlotOfReading 5 minutes ago
              I work in automotive for OEMs and I've seen this at many factories. They still need to switch, because their technical issues are a supply chain risk for me. I don't want to hear that a batch is bad because they did abominable things to the software they were given. That's happened. I don't want to find out that they had a system die or get hacked and now things are shut down until some eBay seller mails replacements. Seen that. So on and so forth.

              I ran out of patience years ago for the inevitable results of letting an unaccountable third party own decision-making on your critical systems. I'd much rather have that argument when the CEOs aren't breathing down our necks.

          • CableNinja 33 minutes ago
            You are definitely not a person i would hire.

            You clearly dont understand that you dont get to make those decisions. Your users need software X to do Y as a business requirement. Are you going to tell them fuck off because you dont support windows? Sure, you could, once.

            And no manager would ever okay someone writing a fuckton of driver shit or reverse engineering some protocols just so you can be high king and not use a specific OS.

            Fact is business needs drive whats used, and you do not get a say in it, you might think you do, but you really dont. You can give information and options but ultimately it wont be your decision and youll support what the business needs you to support, or you wont be with the business anymore.

            Yeah i agree vendors suck and so do license related shit, but you arent going to convince management that you could write a superior product AND support it for less than the cost the vendor would charge the company. And yes, this isnt always true, there are obviously some times when it is actually better to do it yourself, or use a foss solution. You still wont win in most cases. Users are going to use the thing they need and if youre blocking them from moving forward, youre more problem than the software youre trying to stop deployment of.

    • baka367 2 hours ago
      20 year old software is probably also going to have a hard time running on windows 11, even with all their compatibility layers packed up
  • TheRoque 5 hours ago
    I wonder what's their endgame. I mean, if it keeps getting worse, at some point they will really bleed users.

    Even if for now the stats (e.g. steam hardware survey), show only a slight increase in Linux users (and a lot of them could be dual booting)

    • hadlock 4 hours ago
      > a lot of them could be dual booting

      I should have a valid license for windows, my Win 8 Pro license (which I paid full price for, like $150) should have worked for Windows 10 (and then transfered to 11) but it's not working anymore for whatever reason, I probably upgraded without disabling the key somewhere or whatever. So when I use Windows I have that "activation required" nag watermark now. When microsoft finally remotely kills my unactivated windows 10 install (a week from now? 6 months?) I'm just not going back. The only reason I dual boot these days is fusion 360 CAD and there's a steam install on there so it's probably showing up as a windows install even though I haven't played games on there in probably years.

      Windows will probably continue on forever simply due to inertia but this "you have to have a web login to use your private computer" b.s. is going to turn off a lot of consumers, and this will be the watershed moment where Proton/Wine finally moves from 5, to 10 or 15% of users

    • heresie-dabord 1 hour ago
      > what's their endgame

      Cloud-based profit. The "computer user" model is dead.

      • EasyMark 40 minutes ago
        right, "everything is a monthly or annual license or we want none of it" is where they are headed. Cloud makes that even easier.
      • 4d4m 1 hour ago
        This is the reason. The rent-to-compute model is being pushed so hard.
    • bulletsvshumans 4 hours ago
      Keep milking the cash cows to pay for the new growth area (AI). Convert maximum % of Windows users into subscription service consumers (e.g. cloud storage, Office 365, future paid AI capabilities.)
    • Telaneo 3 hours ago
      I'm not sure anyone at Microsoft has any endgame in mind for Windows. The devs are just working on what they're being told to work on, which aren't the parts conducive to happy consumers, while the execs are working on instinct and telemetry without context, and thus are basically flailing with no actual goal in mind beyond the next quarter. Add in that there's little hope for Windows' market share to increase in any large way, and that there thus isn't much reason to spend loads of money or dev time on improving Windows, and there's no wonder that we've come to this point.
    • MattGaiser 4 hours ago
      Try the internet without an adblocker. The typical user will put up with a lot of pain.
      • userbinator 3 hours ago
        So will the typical developer these days, unfortunately.
    • VerifiedReports 5 hours ago
      Windows is absolutely insufferable now. Offensive, defective, regressive, clumsy, slow garbage.
      • TheRoque 5 hours ago
        I 100% agree, I dual boot myself and get reminded on how horrible the user experience is as opposed to Fedora with KDE Plasma
        • daveguy 5 hours ago
          I boot to Linux, but have a Windows 11 VM. I haven't spun up the Windows VM more than once a month for many months (maybe a year?). And that's just to update windows.
          • greenavocado 1 hour ago
            Spin up Windows 98 in a VM to remind yourself how insanely lightweight it used to be while still resembling something of a modern system
    • m4ck_ 3 hours ago
      Replace personal PCs with thin clients that give you an RDP session to Azure? I'm pretty sure a cloud only / subscription based "agentic" OS is the goal for windows. And, conveniently, hardware prices are through the roof until (hopefully) the AI bubble pops.
    • dartharva 3 hours ago
      Microsoft's cloud/AI services are high-margin and lock users into a subscription, i.e. a consistent revenue stream. Windows is to be a marketing/cross-selling channel for those businesses first and foremost.

      They very likely foresee the demise of PC as a platform altogether and are trying their best to shepherd us into their other products.

    • phendrenad2 3 hours ago
      The endgame is obviously to sell you Office 365, and Xbox Game Pass. Every Windows user who isn't giving them ARR equals one skeptical eyebrow from wall street.
    • hedora 4 hours ago
      They’re using their legacy OS and Office business to subsidize services (LinkedIn, GitHub, npm, vscode, teams, azure, etc).

      Consider what our industry will look like once the surveillance as a service/enshittifcation that’s been implemented for windows is ported to those things.

      Try switching away from the services I mentioned, and you’ll see why the strategy makes sense.

    • senectus1 3 hours ago
      you will not own a computer, you will lease them, via a terminal.

      and you will like it. so says MS.

  • calmbonsai 41 minutes ago
    FWIW, as a former NTSE, I abandoned Windows in the late '90s when, within a 2 year period they:

    - Embedded IE making multi-version browser testing an absolute PITA

    - Rolled out WGA and screwed up bulk-licensing and multi-tier/versioned licensing for cluster operations and emerging mobile hardware

    - Allowed arbitrary code to be embedded in the registry

  • 999900000999 3 hours ago
    This is the reason Windows is essentially free.

    I believe once( this is an urban legend) a manufacturer in a middle income country considered going with Linux to save money and Microsoft flew out a sales rep next day to put a stop to it.

    Microsoft likes it when you get a "deal" and buy a pro key for 10$. Whatever, you'll subscribe to half a dozen Microwave services ideally paying them 30$ to 40$ a month forever.

    The last thing they want is you to try Linux.

    However, I had the joy of watching multiple Linux desktop environments crash when I switched to my Bluetooth headphones.

    Cinnamon and Budgie both crashed. No one knows why. I had to switch to Mate and then spend another 20 minutes trying to get it look ok.

    No typical user wants to deal with this. They'd assume Linux doesn't work and move on.

    • ehnto 2 hours ago
      It's not like Windows hasn't had a slew of bullshit like this over the years. Especially around audio and peripherals. It still changes my default headphones every time I log in, doesn't recognise my standard audio interface, it's a crapshoot if my USB devices are all recognised every boot.
    • canadiantim 2 hours ago
      Yeah, but now we have AI to handhold people in troubleshooting Linux issues, so huzzah, the golden age is upon us.
  • pyrolistical 5 hours ago
    How about requiring a ms account to activate?

    Have they closed the double install trick?

    1. Install once with ms account and activate.

    2. Reinstall offline with local account.

    3. It will be activated when you go back online.

    I suspect the remote server remember your computer hardware generated guid

    • MarsIronPI 3 hours ago
      Hm, when I set up the pre-installed Windows 11 on my mother's new laptop, I was able to set it up without any Microsoft account at all (she never had one and doesn't want one). I remember that it was possible by running some command at one point during the setup process. Is that also gone by now?
    • mysterypie 4 hours ago
      As someone who hasn't used Windows in a long time, could you explain the benefit of doing a double install like that? I.e., if you stopped at step #1, it's activated, so what purpose does step 2 serve?
  • bob1029 17 minutes ago
    Windows activation has been a game of CTF for me since the early 2000s. I've got more than enough resources to pay for a Win11 license many times over. But I refuse to. Part is something approximating "I've already paid the windows tax 30+ times" but it's more than this. The UX regression from the XP era is shocking when you put things side by side.

    I happily paid $500 for a perpetual VS2026 license just a few days ago, but I'll continue to use things like massgrave for windows no matter how big my cash pile grows. I know it's the same company, but it's really not about the money. It's about sending some kind of a message regarding software quality.

    If you could give me an experience identical to VS on Linux I would move in an instant. But it simply doesn't exist. It's frankly not even close after all these years. VSCode is like the IDE "we have at home". Linux is a great target for many things now (e.g., steam deck), but using it as my daily driver development platform is still a non-starter.

    I know it's possible to make anything work on Linux, but that's not a very compelling argument for me anymore. It's got to work well. The experience can't suck ass. Even the steam deck was a herky jerky OOBE with WiFi/networking woes and 5-6 reboots to get it going. That's with Gabe Newell ~in charge using billions of dollars to make it go smoothly. I don't have access to those kinds of resources so I figure why even try. I've already thrown ~5k hours into the Linux hole over my lifetime. I don't think it's an investment that has paid off very well for me. Linus himself has acknowledged that the win32 ABI is the most stable and well designed he's ever seen. Why wouldn't I follow his advice?

  • GaryBluto 5 hours ago
    How did we get here from W2K? It's hard to think of a time when you could use software without internet connection or a phone line.
    • esafak 5 hours ago
      Two decades of turning screws.
  • SilentM68 5 hours ago
    I never thought it would happen, but now I use Linux about 95% of the time. These days, I rarely touch Windows. It feels like Microsoft’s higher-ups never found a clear direction for the OS, focusing more on saturating the market than on maintaining quality. :(
  • firefoxd 56 minutes ago
    The problem isn't just that new installs will require this, but if you are on Windows 11, there are a hundred accidental ways of creating a Microsoft account. Sometimes it's disguised as an update, or a sneaky notification. Sometimes it's onedrive, or you are trying to login via Edge. It reminds me of how Google was trying to trick us all into getting a Google+ account.

    MS: "One way or another, you are creating an account so help me God."

  • cbcoutinho 4 hours ago
    I've been running openSUSE tumbleweed myself for years, and recommend Linux to like-minded power users. OP is preaching to the choir.

    How do you all deal with (extended) family? This Christmas I spent time with my parents and the topic of Windows 11 came up again with all of its associated dark patterns.

    What do you all do to help them out of this madness? Is Ubuntu/Fedora/etc the best option for seniors? My dad's entire career was in Silicon Valley 1.0 where Excel/Outlook was his bread and butter and feels married to Windows, but ever since leaving the workforce those skills are more of a hindrance than an asset.

    Now that he's retired, he still uses Excel to plan vacations for example, but Windows is riddled with this BS and I am powerless to help him navigate this anti-consumer behavior. It's incredible that Microsoft is shooting their most loyal customers in the foot with this BS.

    Do you all help your parents remotely? What kind of issues do you run into being your parents IT support?

    • rose-knuckle17 4 hours ago
      Senior care and technology is going to be a gold rush over the next couple decades. Society is not prepared for the only generation who grew up on the internet to regress into mental infirmary while still believing technology is an essential need.

      For those of you who haven't already had to deal with today's 70 year old MCI sufferers and technology, it is already a complete shitshow, and that generation lived half their adult lives without mobile technology.

      Imagine finding 12 renewing subscriptions to malwarebytes and other security suites. Or having to burn credit cards every month because they can no longer tell the difference between ads/scams and actual needs. Microsoft, of course, helpfully shovels those scams straight to them via the operating system now. The corporations of America have figured out that milking our elders is good for a quick buck, and it is in their interests to make sure no safety nets are in place. Once they are required, they'll game whatever that system is too.

      It is all the control battles our parents fought with their parents over driving, but now it is about the phone/tablet/computer, but not being able to take the phone away as a practical matter because the (first) world expects everyone to have them.

      SSO and recovery keys are a problem for proxy account administrators - especially with the banking and medical sectors which still rely solely on SMS. Sites such as login.gov won't allow multiple accounts to have the same phone number. So if both you and your parents need accounts for social security, you as the caregiver can't use your phone as the second factor for their account.

      For added fun, many organizations, including banks and the US Government/various federal pension boards, refuse to recognize a power of attorney letter, either. The entire modern situation leaves caregiver children having to commit technical TOS violation/fraud/perjury just to get accounts reset or to (re)gain access to submit address changes.

      • Telaneo 2 hours ago
        > For added fun, many organizations, including banks and the US Government/various federal pension boards, refuse to recognize a power of attorney letter, either.

        Ouch! That's got to make things hard!

        That's thankfully not a problem where I live. Here the problem is more that the banks might be a little over-eager to take agency away from seniors, since once they get a whiff of their grandson helping them with their banking and what not, they lock their account and claim to have broken their TOS or the law regarding not having other people control their account, and that if you want people to do that, you need that power of attorney.

        Honestly, this is a lot better than the alternative of not being vigilant enough, and I'd honestly argue that it's better to let there be as little shame as possible in handing over your banking to your next of kind, so that when it starts getting really bad, it's not too late. But this obviously gets very individual very quickly. One senior will handle their banking just fine until their 105, while the next gets Alzheimer at 55, while the next starts to have to put a lot more effort into doing it right at 75, but they don't have any next of kin they can trust to not slowly empty their savings account once they get the power of attorney.

      • cbcoutinho 3 hours ago
        Thanks for bringing up the point about power-of-attorney, I'll have to dive into that as well.

        I dread the day I have to get more involved in their healthcare from afar, precisely because of the technology gap. The money grab from big-pharma is going to unrelenting

    • MattGaiser 4 hours ago
      This is why Windows will get away with it.

      As much as Windows is deeply flawed, the user interface challenges with Linux are difficult to overcome. Until there is a version of Linux where you don’t have to open the console, Windows will keep its market.

      • lewiscollard 1 hour ago
        My old man has been running Linux for nearly 20 years now. I PROMISE not only that he has never once opened a console, but would spontaneously combust if you suggested it. (I have used a command line on his computer a few times in those two-ish decades, when doing my very rare tech support, but that's just because that's the fastest way for me to get anything done.)

        Maybe Windows back in e.g. Windows 2000 days would have some sort of claim to user interface discoverability and predictability which no Linux distribution would have. That ship has sailed; Windows today is a shitshow.

      • Telaneo 2 hours ago
        > Until there is a version of Linux where you don’t have to open the console

        This is already the case from the Grandma use case, i.e. nothing more than a web browser and maybe Thunderbird and an office program. The terminal issue doesn't come up until you start getting into people who know just enough to be dangerous (myself included).

        The larger issue is that computers with Linux pre-installed are (within a rounding error) not a thing, and thus Grandma can't go out and buy one. Telling her to install it on her current computer makes about as much sense to her as asking her to flob the nerfwhizzle. And even if she could, would she place her bets on a (to her) completely new computer system? Not without help or solid recommendations from trusted sources.

    • Telaneo 3 hours ago
      > How do you all deal with (extended) family? This Christmas I spent time with my parents and the topic of Windows 11 came up again with all of its associated dark patterns.

      The mom and dad gen are all on iPads or just phones from what I can tell. Very few people there use PCs for their personal computing (work is another matter, but mostly not relevant to this discussion), and those that do are more power user-y. This group largely don't need help beyond edge cases in my experience.

      The grandma and grandpa generation are mostly the same story, but there's a lot more who have more or less just bailed completely outside of the absolute essentials (online banking, literal phone calls). Some are still on PCs out of a desire to not change things too much, but I'd imagine switching them over to an iPad is probably an overall improvement once you can get past the unwillingness to shift over to another system. The fact that Windows 11 is such hot garbage will hopefully aid in convincing people of that.

      For those who still want a PC, there's Linux. My grandma is on Mint, but that's just because I'm her personal tech support. If I weren't around, she'd have bought a Windows 11 machine from whatever idiot at the local electronics store. I can't imagine that would have gone very well. She'd have probably bailed completely on computing if it came to that.

      Very few people in this group of people need software beyond what basic Linux can provide, so Linux should be able to provide a better environment than Windows, but that are loads of potential edge cases, but they're all very small, but all very annoying if you find yourself in one.

      > What kind of issues do you run into being your parents IT support?

      Mom and Dad: 'Hey, can you help me with this website?' -> 'It's broken, try again tomorrow.' or 'Try that button there.'.

      Grandma: See previous.

      'How do I do [thing that hasn't changed since Windows 95]'?

      'What do I do here?' -> 'Read the message on the screen and act accordingly.'

      'My mouse doesn't work!' -> 'Check the batteries.'

      Most of these later issues are because she treats the computer mechanistically, one unchanging step at a time, so if anything doesn't go to plan, she functionally panics. I don't know how to solve this problem, but it seems endemic to me given how common of a trope it is in stories from computer savvy people helping the not-so-savvy.

      I can't remember where I heard about it, but it probably comes from the fact that a large-ish portion of the population can't connect concepts to things that don't have tangible forms. Thus, all the invisible processes inside any computer (files, memory, networking) that any computer savvy person will be aware of, don't exist and don't make sense in the mind of the not computer savvy, since it has no tangible form. You can find a similar case with office phone systems. Transferring a call is apparently hard for a number of people, since a call isn't a tangible item, doing anything with it makes zero sense. At best you can get them to place calls on hold, but that's only because their office phone will have buttons with blinking lights that say 'Line 1' and 'Line 2' on them, and they can thus easily connect the light blinking with the call on hold. Suddenly it's tangible, and thus it can make sense.

      • cbcoutinho 2 hours ago
        Great points. I had at least three of your example scenarios occur between my parents and I within the last couple days.

        The more time I spend online the more I'm convinced I have never had a unique experience.

        • Telaneo 2 hours ago
          We all largely interact with the same or similar services every day, so it's no wonder we all end up with similar experiences.

          Thankfully, I don't have to deal with this every couple of days. Dad rarely ventures outside of his comfort zone, so needing to help him with some website is a very rare occurrence. Grandma is mostly fine so long as absolutely nothing changes. While they don't change every day, they do change every so often, in ways that I have to really focus to even see sometimes, but which apparently instantly throw her of her trail (while at the same time she's incapable of reading an error message that takes up a fairly large portion of her screen! I'm baffled to this day, but there's nothing that can be done about it). If her online bank and the few other services she rarely interacts with never change in even the slightest way for the next 20 years, I'd imagine I'd never need to be her tech support again, barring the batteries in her mouse dying again, or her computer itself kicking the bucket.

  • yellowapple 3 hours ago
    AFAICT this doesn't affect activating via a KMS server (incl. KMS emulators like vlmcsd), correct?
  • efitz 4 hours ago
    I used to work at Microsoft in the Windows team (XP/2003/Longhorn/Vista/7).

    The product today doesn’t feel like the product I worked on; I feel no connection to it, and every time I think that there’s nothing they could do to make me dislike it any more, Microsoft has another “hey, hold my beer and watch this” moment.

    The problem with the old Microsoft this that it was run by engineers who didn’t understand user experience. The problem now is that it’s run by MBAs who dont care about users, just licenses.

  • vivzkestrel 4 hours ago
    we should all come together and collectively kill the idea of using a windows based operating system unless they get their stuff together and give us an AI free, bloat free, single page with 10000 settings configurable for privacy and security and a promise of updating only once a month with full opt out
  • jmward01 2 hours ago
    I have a windows laptop (and a mac) for work. The windows laptop gets turned on, connected to my limited guest network, only when work yells at me that it hasn't had its security patches recently and in the extremely rare times I need it to do a full build (I'm trying to get our build process away from windows specific. I got the parts I work on away at least). I used MS DOS v2.0. I knew every setting inside and out and had all the tricks down through windows XP. I grudgingly used it up until 5 years ago when I couldn't take MS destroying the OS and user experience any more. Since I switched I have never looked back. Not once have I thought 'Gee, I wish I had a windows box'. Even for gaming. Especially for 'productivity' apps like word and the like. MS used to be THE OS for developers. You built apps for windows because the best tools to build apps were there and the best experience developing was there. Now I have no idea who they are building an OS for other than corporations. It is painful. It is bloated. It is invasive. It isn't intuitive. It can't be trusted. Every time I see windows I cringe and am thankful there are actual alternatives. Good luck MS. You are only being used by people that have to or don't understand they have another option. Lock-in is their only advantage.
  • datatrashfire 5 hours ago
    i recently upgraded a computer. windows 10 deactivated itself due to the hardware change. i tried everything i could to reactivate. microsoft support told me my only solution was to buy a new license. microsoft treats its customer with contempt.
    • toast0 2 hours ago
      If you can deupgrade... Deupgrade, make sure it reactivates, then create a local account tied to a microsoft account and reboot and check activation page until it says activated with your microsoft account.

      Then upgrade and reboot until it deactivates, then it should let you fix it with your microsoft account... Once that happens, you can remove the microsoft account from your computer.

    • hypeatei 4 hours ago
      At that point, find a reseller site and buy a key for cheap or just don't activate Windows at all. I don't think you lose much "features" when leaving it unactivated. It's not worth your time to deal with Microsoft support over Windows activation keys in 2026.
    • sekh60 5 hours ago
      I'm curious did you have an OEM license or a retail license? OEM licenses die with the mobo.
      • bigstrat2003 5 hours ago
        OEM licenses are for the computer, not the motherboard. The online activation historically hasn't worked if you change motherboard, but the phone line folks would always activate it for you if you explained that it was the same computer with a different motherboard.
      • datatrashfire 3 hours ago
        i bought a builder license from newegg in 2017. unfortunately i was not diligent about saving the product key. this was actually the third time i had been in this scenario after changing hardware. no idea why it wouldn’t work this time around.
  • BloodyIron 5 hours ago
    Kills ONE official way to activate Win11/10 without internet. There's still KMS and other methods... Article title is slightly misleading.

    Sure, it sucks about the phone activation thing, but frankly... STOP USING WINDOWS ALREADY.

  • inatreecrown2 3 hours ago
    I wonder if Microsoft will ever turn ship with Windows, or will it all be a decline until it is no longer needed.
    • stock_toaster 3 hours ago
      At this point it is really only just a vehicle to drive more traffic to office365 (or whatever weird name microsoft is calling it this week).
    • jofla_net 3 hours ago
      lets ask SEARS
  • ChrisArchitect 21 minutes ago
    Related raging about this nerd/tech-niche problem 3 months ago:

    Microsoft is plugging more holes that let you use Windows 11 without MS account

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45497384

  • throw03172019 2 hours ago
    If windows is anything like navigating Azure and other developer platforms of Microsoft, I don’t want it. How is that a multi trillion dollar company?
  • maplant 1 hour ago
    what a coincidence, I'm switching fully over to linux tomorrow
  • bilekas 1 hour ago
    > For the fastest and most convenient way to activate your product, please visit our online product activation portal at aka.ms/aoh

    God these companies are insufferable.

  • evil_morty 2 hours ago
    The only way this epidemic of Microsoft would end if a Linux company has a monetary incentive to serve customers.

    My mother doesn't need to worry about typing `chmod` into her android mobile terminal.

    • SunlitCat 1 hour ago
      Well, one company is doing already that. It's Valve and their ongoing work on proton, steam deck (which runs on linux) and much more in that space.
  • t1234s 3 hours ago
    does this affect massgrave.dev?
  • thevillagechief 4 hours ago
    Good on them. Just hastening the inevitable shift to Linux. I don't even care what they do anymore.
    • chii 3 hours ago
      > Just hastening the inevitable shift to Linux

      i do feel the ecosystem isn't broad enough for linux to become consumer facing. E.g., if you buy a random chinese made writing tablet and tried using it on linux, it has less than even chance of working straight out the box.

      Similarly with bluetooth, wifi (for laptops), etc.

      The problem is that OEM are locked into windows, so you have the chicken/egg problem where OEM won't want to spend effort on linux compatibility without a large customer base, and customer base won't grow unless they know for sure it is always going to work for _any_ piece of hardware they might purchase.

      May be steam machine and valve could be the push it needs to establish a large customer base.

  • LeoPanthera 4 hours ago
    Windows 11 is a thin client for the Microsoft cloud. It's not surprising that you have to activate it online, and that you can no longer use it without a Microsoft account. That's the whole point.

    People who complain that Windows isn't what they want are missing the point. Windows isn't for you. macOS, Linux, and more obscure choices still exist for general purpose computing. SteamOS or various Steam focused Linux distros exist for gaming. ChromeOS exists as a less offensive and more reliable thin OS.

    Trying to force Windows into being something it isn't is a waste of your time.

    • stakhanov 55 minutes ago
      Always reminds me of the quote "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." by T. J. Watson Sr.

      The quote is usually delivered as a punchline of sorts, but we're rapidly approaching a world where there truly will be only five computers. If you define a computer as a system capable of truly general purpose computing, and if you count the computers as systems each capable of operating truly independently of the others. The term "general purpose" needs the further qualification, that a great deal of power and political capital will be needed to have any say in what purpose one of these five computers will be put to, and it will then be forced on the other people who are forced to work with that computer.

  • ehnto 2 hours ago
    Add it to the list. I won't install another Windows machine, after more than two decades of Windows at home.

    I guess mildly privacy concious gamer was not one of target their demographics.

  • vips7L 3 hours ago
    Upgrading to Windows 11 tomorrow for my new gaming pc. Really looking forward to it. Mostly so I can use the new Phone Link functionality to get my iMessages on my desktop.
    • jwnin 3 hours ago
      is that fully functional, or still limited to 1:1 conversations?
      • vips7L 3 hours ago
        Not sure l, I honestly haven’t looked at it since its initial release. Either way, 1-1s are all I really care about.
    • dartharva 3 hours ago
      Do yourself a favor and stick to Windows 10. ISOs are still available on Microsoft's website and you can use local accounts and activate ESU using any of the scripts available on GitHub.

      Even better, use the LTSC releases.

      • vips7L 2 hours ago
        I’ve been using 11 on my laptop for years. I honestly think it’s fine. I spend 99% of my time in a game or IntelliJ.
        • dartharva 2 hours ago
          Then I suggest you just try experimenting once. You will notice and immediate difference.
          • vips7L 2 hours ago
            I literally said I’ve been using it for _years_ and I think it’s fine.
  • thewhitetulip 5 hours ago
    People should switch to Linux. I started using Fedora on Cosmic and it is great!

    Mint is very similar to Windows UI

  • chews 5 hours ago
    Finding more modern ways to be lame and making it easier for folks to either pirate (use shady activation methods) or move to other platforms.
  • gethly 5 hours ago
    This is the result of indification of microsoft as a whole.
  • expedition32 4 hours ago
    This is just so bizarre. Like 90% of the people wouldn't even know you COULD activate without an MS account and the remainder will just use Rufus to bypass restrictions. So what is MS actually "fixing"?
  • bitwize 5 hours ago
    (as a person whose "year of the Linux desktop" was literally 30 frickin' years ago) Oh no! Anyway...
    • imajoredinecon 3 hours ago
      My version of that is to just use a (high-end) Chromebook. The OS never gets in the way, can’t remember the last time I had to change a system setting or manually upgrade anything
  • jccx70 4 hours ago
    Windows server is the best Windows os (can be use as a client os) but it's still Windows shit.
    • briHass 4 hours ago
      Nothing wrong with Windows Server Core, which has zero UI. Managed totally with Powershell, which once you get used to it, is an excellent shell/scripting language.
      • vips7L 3 hours ago
        Powershell is really good. For scripting you get the whole C# standard library and can write cmdlets in C# itself.
  • jccx70 4 hours ago
    People who care about Windows, lol.
  • fbias 3 hours ago
    The negativity in this thread is amusing. I can’t take HN seriously anymore, you guys crack me up with your flimsy outrage and dramatic monologues.

    I’ll be upgrading to Win 11 and activating it with an internet connection. And I won’t think twice about it.

    • allenrb 2 hours ago
      Did you miss the quotation marks around “upgrading”?