Chromium Has Merged JpegXL

(chromium-review.googlesource.com)

216 points | by thunderbong 7 hours ago

9 comments

  • out_of_protocol 3 hours ago
    https://cloudinary.com/blog/jpeg-xl-and-the-pareto-front

    Oldie goodie article with charts, comparing webp, jpegxl, avif, jpeg etc. avif is SLOW

  • adzm 5 hours ago
    https://github.com/libjxl/jxl-rs jxl-rs is the underlying implementation. It's relatively new but Rust certainly calms security fears. This library wasn't really an option last time this came around in chromium.
    • WhereIsTheTruth 4 minutes ago
      > Rust certainly calms security fears

      No, memory safety is not security, Rust's memory guarantees eliminate some issues, but they also create a dangerous overconfidence, devs treat the compiler as a security audit and skip the hard work of threat modeling

      A vigilant C programmer who manually validates everything and use available tools at its disposal is less risky than a complacent Rust programmer who blindly trust the language

    • quikoa 4 hours ago
      Didn't Google refuse adding JpegXL because they claimed there wasn't enough interest? I don't think they refused out of security concerns but maybe I'm misremembering that.
      • pixelesque 4 hours ago
        Google argued that duplicating largely (I know JpegXL does support a bit more, but from most users' perspectives, they're largely right) what AVIF provided while being written in an unsafe language was not what they wanted in terms in increasing the attack surface.
        • adzm 4 hours ago
          And it really was the right move at the time, imo. JXL however now has better implementations and better momentum in the wider ecosystem and not just yet another image format that gets put into chrome and de facto becomes a standard.
          • _ache_ 3 hours ago
            I can confirm. I found multiple problems in the "official" cjxl encoder back in 2023 contrary to the webp2 (cwp2) implementation where I could not find any bug or error.

            If the encoder have obvious problems it is not a big deal, but it doesn't bode well for the decoder.

            • adzm 3 hours ago
              CVE-2023-0645 in libjxl that year too, and several since
          • klglrksbjkt 4 hours ago
            • actionfromafar 2 hours ago
              Hahaha perfect! Can't believe I never heard this story before.
      • gcr 1 hour ago
        Google refused to merge JpegXL as a strategy play to promote AVIF, which was in use by other teams (i think Photos?). Internally, chrome engineers were supportive of jxl but were overridden by leadership.
        • zaphar 35 minutes ago
          Do you have actual sources for this? Because the other people commenting about how the newer library removes most of the concerns explains this better than an unsubstantiated speculation about promoting AVIF.
  • bla3 1 hour ago
    It's a shame that JpegXL doesn't have a freely available spec.
    • master-lincoln 9 minutes ago
      You could also say it's a sham to have non-public standards
    • Latitude7973 1 hour ago
      In general terms, it is a shame that thousands of ISO, IEC etc specifications and documents are behind a paywall.
      • bionhoward 44 minutes ago
        Yes! The paywalled SQL documents are a big annoyance
  • LtdJorge 4 hours ago
    I’ve recently compared WebP and AVIF with the reference encoders (and rav1e for lossy AVIF), and for similar quality, WebP is almost instant while AVIF takes more than 20 seconds (1MP image).

    JXL is not yet widely supported, so I cannot really use it (videogame maps), but I hope its performance is similar to WebP with better quality, for the future.

    • adzm 4 hours ago
      You have to adjust the CPU used parameter, not just quality, for AVIF. Though it can indeed be slow it should not be that slow, especially for a 1mp image. The defaults usually use a higher CPU setting for some reason. I have modest infrastructure that generates 2MP AVIF in a hundred ms or so.
      • LtdJorge 3 hours ago
        I tested both WebP and AVIF with maximum CPU usage/effort. I have not tried the faster settings because I wanted the highest quality for small size, but for similar quality WebP blew AVIF out of the water.

        I also have both compiled with -O3 and -march=znver2 in GCC (same for rav1e's RUSTFLAGS) through my Gentoo profile.

        • adzm 3 hours ago
          Maximum CPU between those two libs is not really comparable though. But quality is subjective and it sounds like webp worked best for you! Just saying though, there is little benefit in using the max CPU settings for avif. That's like comparing max CPU settings on zip vs xz!
  • jakkos 6 hours ago
    I've been hearing about fights over JpegXL and WebP (and AVIF?) for years, but don't know much about it.

    From a quick look at various "benchmarks" JpegXL seems just be flat out better than WebP in both compression speed and size, why has there been such reluctance from Chromium to adopt it? Are there WebP benefits I'm missing?

    My only experience with WebP has been downloading what is nominally a `.png` file but then being told "WebP is not supported" by some software when I try to open it.

    • jmillikin 5 hours ago
      Most of the code in WebP and AVIF is shared with VP8/AV1, which means if your browser supports contemporary video codecs then it also gets pretty good lossy image codecs for free. JPEG-XL is a separate codebase, so it's far more effort to implement and merely providing better compression might not be worth it absent other considerations. The continued widespread use of JPEG is evidence that many web publishers don't care that much about squeezing out a few bytes.

      Also from a security perspective the reference implementation of JPEG-XL isn't great. It's over a hundred kLoC of C++, and given the public support for memory safety by both Google and Mozilla it would be extremely embarrassing if a security vulnerability in libjxl lead to a zero-click zero-day in either Chrome or Firefox.

      The timing is probably a sign that Chrome considers the Rust implementation of JPEG-XL to be mature enough (or at least heading in that direction) to start kicking the tires.

      • latexr 4 hours ago
        > The continued widespread use of JPEG is evidence that many web publishers don't care that much about squeezing out a few bytes.

        I agree with the second part (useless hero images at the top of every post demonstrate it), but not necessarily the first. JPEG is supported pretty much everywhere images are, and it’s the de facto default format for pictures. Most people won’t even know what format they’re using, let alone that they could compress it or use another one. In the words of Hank Hill:

        > Do I look like I know what a JPEG is? I just want a picture of a god dang hot dog.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKTOHVGNbg

        • jmillikin 4 hours ago
          I'm not (only) talking about the general population, but major sites. As a quick sanity check, the following sites are serving images with the `image/jpeg` content type:

          * CNN (cnn.com): News-related photos on their front page

          * Reddit (www.reddit.com): User-provided images uploaded to their internal image hosting

          * Amazon (amazon.com): Product categories on the front page (product images are in WebP)

          I wouldn't expect to see a lot of WebP on personal homepages or old-style forums, but if bandwidth costs were a meaningful budget line item then I would expect to see ~100% adoption of WebP or AVIF for any image that gets recompressed by a publishing pipeline.

          • ascorbic 1 hour ago
            Any site that uses a frontend framework or CMS will probably serve WebP at the very least.
          • vlovich123 2 hours ago
            It’s subsidized by cheap CDN rates and dominated by video demand.
    • 3OCSzk 32 minutes ago
      1 black pixel of .webp is smaller than 1 black pixel of .jpegxl that is also smaller than 1 black pixel of .png

      so webp > jpegxl > png

    • jacobp100 6 hours ago
      JpegXL and AVIF are comparable formats. Google argued you only needed one, and each additional format is a security vulnerability.
      • londons_explore 3 hours ago
        And more importantly, an additional format is a commitment to maintain support forever, not only for you, but for future people who implement a web browser.

        I can completely see why the default answer to "should we add x" should be no unless there is a really good reason.

    • coppsilgold 5 hours ago
      JPEG XL has progressive decoding

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UphN1_7nP8U

    • out_of_protocol 5 hours ago
      - avif is better at low bpp (low-quality images), terrible in lossless

      - jxl is better at high bpp, best in lossless mode

    • rdsubhas 3 hours ago
      > various "benchmarks" JpegXL seems just be flat out better than WebP

      The decode speed benchmarks are misleading. WebP has been hardware accelerated since 2013 in Android and 2020 in Apple devices. Due to existing hardware capabilities, real users will _always_ experience better performance and battery life with webp.

      JXL is more about future-proofing. Bit depth, Wide gamut HDR, Progressive decoding, Animation, Transparency, etc.

      JXL does flat out beats AVIF (the image codec, not videos) today. AVIF also pretty much doesn't have hardware decoding in modern phones yet. It makes sense to invest NOW in JXL than on AVIF.

      For what people use today - unfortunately there is no significant case to beat WebP with the existing momentum. The size vs perceptive quality tradeoffs are not significantly different. For users, things will get worse (worser decode speeds & battery life due to lack of hardware decode) before it gets better. That can take many years – because hey, more features in JXL also means translating that to hardware die space will take more time. Just the software side of things is only now picking up.

      But for what we all need – it's really necessary to start the JXL journey now.

    • speps 6 hours ago
      It was an issue with the main JPEGXL library being unmaintained and possibly open for security flaws. Some people got together and wrote a new one in Rust which then became an acceptable choice for a secure browser.
      • spider-mario 5 minutes ago
        It’s largely the same people.
      • a-french-anon 5 hours ago
        Unmaintained? You must be mistaken, libjxl was getting a healthy stream of commits.

        The issue was the use of C++ instead of Rust or WUFFS (that Chromium uses for a lot of formats).

    • archerx 5 hours ago
      Google created webp and that is why they are giving it unjustified preferential treatment and has been trying to unreasonably force it down the throat of the internet.
      • adzm 3 hours ago
        WebP gave me alpha transparency with lossy images, which came in handy at the time. It was also not bogged down by patents and licensing. Plus like others said, if you support vp8 video, you pretty much already have a webp codec, same with AV1 and avif
        • archerx 2 hours ago
          Lossy PNGs exist with transparency.
          • adzm 1 hour ago
            Do you mean lossless? PNGs are not lossy. A large photo with alpha channel in a lossless png could easily be 20x the size of a lossy webp
            • archerx 0 minutes ago
              No I meant lossy. This is the library I use; https://pngquant.org/
            • Semaphor 27 minutes ago
              PNG of course can be lossy. They aren’t great at it, but depending on the image can be good enough.
      • breppp 3 hours ago
        unjustified preferential treatment over jpegxl a format google also had created
        • archerx 3 hours ago
          They helped create jpegXL but they are not the sole owner like they are with webp. There is a difference.
          • breppp 3 hours ago
            a better argument might be that chrome protects their own vs a research group in google switzerland, however as other mentioned the security implications of another unsafe binary parser in a browser is hardly worth it
      • MrDOS 3 hours ago
        You're getting downvoted, but you're not wrong. If anyone else had come up with it, it would have been ignored completely. I don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, but it's not really that compelling for end users, either. As other folks in the thread have pointed out, WebP is basically the static image format that you get “for free” when you've already got a VP8 video decoder.

        The funny thing is all the places where Google's own ecosystem has ignored WebP. E.g., the golang stdlib has a WebP decoder, but all of the encoders you'll find are CGo bindings to libwebp.

        • archerx 2 hours ago
          I noticed Hacker news is more about feelings than facts lately which is a shame.
  • viktorcode 5 hours ago
    Anyone knows if their implementation supports animations? This is a feature missing from Apple's
    • adzm 3 hours ago
      According to the chrome platform status page, yes! https://chromestatus.com/feature/5114042131808256

      >>>

        - Progressive decoding for improved perceived loading performance
        - Support for wide color gamut, HDR, and high bit depth
        - Animation support
    • Latitude7973 1 hour ago
      Yes, but it's not recommended - it does not have inter-frame compression, so it is significantly less efficient than just having a regular video file and slapping 'gif' on it.
    • nar001 2 hours ago
      It does, I just tried it in Canary and the jxl test page did also show animations
    • actionfromafar 2 hours ago
      What, isn't this the cue for someone to explain that it's ironic webp is really a video format which is a bad image format, and now we have symmetry that JpegXL is a good image format which is bad video format? :-D

      (I don't know if any of this is true, but it sounds funny...)

  • carra 3 hours ago
    Thanks, but just like WEBP I'll try to stick to regular JPEGs whenever possible. Not all programs I use accept these formats, and for a common user JPEG + PNG should mostly cover all needs. Maybe add GIF to the list for simple animations, while more complex ones can be videos instead of images.
    • Sammi 2 hours ago
      You can really treat WebP as a universally available format in 2026. It is an old, boring, and safe format to use now.

      Browser support for WebP is excellent now. The last browser to add it was Safari 14 in September 16, 2020: https://caniuse.com/webp

      It got into Windows 10 1809 in October 2018. Into MacOS Big Sur in November 2020.

      Wikipedia has a great list of popular software that supports it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebP#Graphics_software

      • carra 9 minutes ago
        Unfortunately being universal implies way more than just having good browser support. There are quite a few image processing programs without webp or jpeg-xl support. I'm using Windows 11 and the default image viewer can't even open webp... Also, keep in mind that due to subscription models there are many people stuck with older Photoshop versions too.
      • Y-bar 2 hours ago
        Webp can be really annoying once you hit certain encoding edge cases.

        One customer of mine (fashion) has over 700k images in their DAM, and about 0.5% cannot be converted to webp at all using libwebp. They can without problem be converted to jpeg, png, and avif.

        • jdiff 2 hours ago
          Just out of curiosity, what's the problem libwebp has with them? I wasn't aware of cases where any image format would just cross its arms and refuse point blank like that.
          • Y-bar 1 hour ago
            We have never been able to resolve it better than knowing this:

            Certain pixel colour combinations in the source image appear to trip the algorithm to such a degree that the encoder will only produce a black image.

            We know this because we have been able to encode the images by (in pure frustration) manually brute forcing moving a black square across the source image on different locations and then trying to encode again. Suddenly it will work.

            Images are pretty much always exported from Adobe, often smaller than 3000x3000 pixels. Images from the same camera, same size, same photo session, same export batch will work and then suddenly one out of a few hundred may become black, and only the webp one not other formats, the rest of the photos will work for all formats.

            A more mathematically inclined colleague tried to have a look at the implementation once, but was unable to figure it out because they could apparently not find a good written spec on how the encoder is supposed to work.

          • tr45872267 1 hour ago
            Webp has a maximum pixel dimension size of 16383 x 16383.[0]

            [0] https://developers.google.com/speed/webp/faq#what_is_the_max...

    • striking 2 hours ago
      "JPEG XL" is a little bit of a misnomer as it's not just "JPEG with more bits". It supports lossless encoding of existing content at a smaller file size than PNG and allows you to transcode existing JPEGs recoverably for a 20% space savings, the lossy encoding doesn't look nearly as ugly and artifacted as JPEG, it supports wide gamut and HDR, and delivers images progressively so you get a decent preview with as little as 15% of the image loaded with no additional client-side effort (from https://jpegxl.info/).

      It is at least a very good transcoding target for the web, but it genuinely replaces many other formats in a way where the original source file can more or less be regenerated.

    • ashirviskas 2 hours ago
      You should never use GIF anymore, it is super inefficient. Just do video, it is 5x to 10x more efficient.

      https://web.dev/articles/replace-gifs-with-videos

      • jdiff 1 hour ago
        There's odd cases where it still has uses. When I was a teacher, some of the gamifying tools don't allow video embeds without a subscription, but I wanted to make some "what 3D operation is shown here" questions with various tools in Blender. GIF sizes were pretty comparable to video with largely static, less-than-a-second loops, and likely had slightly higher quality with care used to reduce color palette usage.

        But I fully realize, there are vanishingly few cases with similar constraints.

        • ascorbic 1 hour ago
          For those you can often use animated WebP, or even APNG. They all have close to universal support and are usually much smaller.
          • adzm 43 minutes ago
            AVIF works here also. Discord started supporting it for custom emoji.
  • einpoklum 1 hour ago
    Unfortunately, with Chromium dropping support for manifest-v2 extensions, and through that dropping proper support for uBlock Origin, I'm moving away from it. Not that that's easy, of course...