How London cracked mobile phone coverage on the Underground

(ianvisits.co.uk)

84 points | by beardyw 5 days ago

20 comments

  • saulr 2 hours ago
    Just to add a piece of data to support this:

    > It turns out the phone signal inside the station can be better than the one above ground

    I was surprised when I noticed I had 5G in the tunnel, ran a speed test and hit 641Mbps down!

    https://www.speedtest.net/result/i/6831252952

    • dgxyz 1 hour ago
      That always hurts. I live in a particularly nice bit of London and there is virtually no mobile phone service other than voice and can only get 80 meg ADSL. Yet the mole people get better service. Grr.
    • SecondHandTofu 2 hours ago
      Like many of London's woes, that's because of planning, councils have to approve infrastructure and block it: https://www.londoncentric.media/p/why-exactly-is-londons-pho...

      I'd say it's developing-world tier, but a lot of the developing world has really good 5G signal these days.

      • userbinator 36 minutes ago
        I'd say it's developing-world tier, but a lot of the developing world has really good 5G signal these days.

        They also have a much bigger population using exclusively mobiles rather than landlines, since their infrastructure developed when the former was already available, and it's cheaper to just put up a few towers than run one landline to each subscriber.

      • dgxyz 1 hour ago
        There are also some absolute morons out there. Couple of local things around me...

        First I went to one of the local town planning meetings in my area when they were rolling out FTTC. This one was due to a rather old person objecting to the placement of a streetside box which was not even outside her property and no one who it would have affected could see it or cared about it. I raised my objections about her being a NIMBY old fart and was asked to leave. She single-handedly blocked it for 5 years due to council connections. She dropped dead. Stuck on 20 meg ADSL until that happened.

        Second, they built a 5g mast put didn't put any equipment in it and left it 3 months. Several local threads on Facebook from the tweakers about how it was causing all sorts of completely unrelated problems from tinnitus to covid to mind control. Then someone burned it. There is still no equipment in the cabinet or mast today, nearly 4 years on. No one got 5g.

        • userbinator 33 minutes ago
          Second, they built a 5g mast put didn't put any equipment in it and left it 3 months. Several local threads on Facebook from the tweakers about how it was causing all sorts of completely unrelated problems from tinnitus to covid to mind control. Then someone burned it. There is still no equipment in the cabinet or mast today, nearly 4 years on. No one got 5g.

          Reminds me of this infamous decade-old story:

          https://web.archive.org/web/20161010203002/http://mybroadban...

      • hdgvhicv 1 hour ago
        During Covid people were attacking engineering laying fibre because it was “5g”, and facebook had told them 5g caused Covid.
      • mgaunard 1 hour ago
        tl;dr people reject installing ugly masts in densely urbanised neighbourhoods, meaning there often isn't enough capacity for everyone to get fast 5G.
  • dbish 7 hours ago
    Pretty neat but as someone who commutes every day on the New York subway I hope it’s never “cracked” here. Phone usage without headphones is already annoying enough and I greatly appreciate the various people trying to take calls eventually lose service.
    • cm2187 1 hour ago
      The worst is not calls, it is the thousands of zombies hooked up on tiktok 24/7, of course with headphones, so completely unaware and indifferent to their environment, who block tunnels, escalators, turnstiles, etc.
      • hdgvhicv 1 hour ago
        In the 90s we read the paper and dumbed with our magnetic tickets. In the 00s we listened to MP3s while playing snake on an oyster. In the 10s we played Andy birds and listened to iTunes with a credit card at the turnstile. In the 20s we doom scroll and listen to Spotify while tapping out with our phone.

        I don’t see the issue.

        • cm2187 46 minutes ago
          All of that that they did while they sit. I don’t remember people reading the newspapers while slow walking in the middle of a corridor. And the problem with headphones is that they make people unaware of their surrounding, alone in the world, and therefore for instance unaware that there is someone on their left that they will cut the way to. Small incivilities, but repeat several times a day every day and it gets seriously annoying.
    • lostlogin 7 hours ago
      It’s a tough choice, is it worse to hear their phone calls, or hear 2 seconds of every bit of TikTok/Instagram feed trash. Either way, no cellular access seems a plus.
      • throw567643u8 49 minutes ago
        Honestly I'd prefer to listen to phone calls over brainless reels. Both are hell.
    • rhubarbtree 19 minutes ago
      What is the thing with people using phones without headphones? And making calls on public transport? When did that become a thing? It’s the most obnoxious selfish behaviour and it shocks me every time.

      It’s not just Gen Z either, I’ve seen a few boomers do it and even a couple of millennials.

    • wolvoleo 2 hours ago
      Who still calls anyway? Literally all my friends exclusively message now (on WhatsApp).

      It would be really annoying if I were out of touch for the whole duration of subway trips. But in my city it works great. Here the 3 main providers pooled together and shared the installation.

    • throw567643u8 2 hours ago
      This behaviour is so bad on London (above ground) trains, if they ever do 'crack it' and roll out mobile signal to the Underground, those tiny carriages will be unbearable.
      • p10jkle 2 hours ago
        There already is signal on many underground lines, and it’s pretty rare that people are playing things out loud in my experience?
        • cm2187 1 hour ago
          London, increasingly common. I’d say a third of the time when I take the tube. Combine that with people making loud calls, 100% of the time. But I find people imposing their music or tiktok videos more obnoxious than a builder discussing his next job a bit loudly.
          • LightBug1 1 hour ago
            A third of the time?

            Sorry, nonsense. I use the tube several times a day and it's a real rarity.

            I do worry about the tube becoming a cacophony of phone calls, but really? Everyone message now anyway so I reckon that'll be a rarity too.

            • cm2187 52 minutes ago
              It may also be highly dependent on which direction you travel. When you travel east from the city, you get totally different demographics than when you travel west.
        • throw567643u8 2 hours ago
          My daily train to/from London Bridge to West Croydon is borderline unbearable.
        • hereonout2 2 hours ago
          It's because phones speakers aren't loud enough to be audible over the sound of the tube itself!

          It is noticeable on buses and overground when people play things out load, but to be honest quite rare in the grand scheme of things.

    • RicoElectrico 2 hours ago
      Somehow even though there's great cell coverage in Warsaw metro people aren't being obnoxious with it.
    • edent 5 hours ago
      Why is your need for silence more important than other people's need to communicate?
      • Retric 4 hours ago
        Neither of those things are needs, it’s just wants and preferring your own wants over others is completely normal.

        Imagine trying to live your life where other people’s desires by default overrode you own.

        • nanna 1 hour ago
          Because silence is a common good, like clean air. It's everyone's. When people fill it with their noise they effectively privatize it for the duration. When they shout on speakerphone or play their music or blare sound from their apps it's especially selfish.
        • userbinator 3 hours ago
          Imagine trying to live your life where other people’s desires by default overrode you own.

          Unfortunately that happens a lot; it's called the government.

      • CalRobert 1 hour ago
        They can use headphones. The problem is listening to someone scroll through tiktok with volume on max.
      • throw567643u8 2 hours ago
        Etiquette. Some are raised with it.
      • hexbin010 3 hours ago
        It's actually against byelaws to play music or other loud sounds on transport in London and they can prosecute you if they so wished...

        It's about acknowledging it's a shared resource and respecting the space. No loud noises, no littering, no being drunk etc

        These days people act like they're the only ones travelling

      • jorvi 1 hour ago
        Their silence disrupts no one, but one call or loud song disrupts 20-40 people their peace.

        Don't be a douche.

      • catoc 2 hours ago
        You do understand that one of those “needs”affects others around you, and one of them leaves them in peace, right? Also I’m sure parent wasn’t referring to emergency calls
    • esperent 6 hours ago
      Not to excuse other people's behavior but buying a decent pair of noise canceling headphones or earbuds will make putting up with it a whole lot easier. You don't even have to listen to anything, or you can put rain noises and thunderstorms. It's as much better soundscape than public transport.
      • hexbin010 2 hours ago
        That also creates a problem that people then can not hear important announcements or be aware of dangers (such as knife wielding attackers, as happened on an LNER train just late last year)
        • 7952 1 hour ago
          A deaf person wouldn't be able to either. We need better non audible ways of signalling.
        • wolvoleo 2 hours ago
          You can still hear those things, just not obnoxiously loudly. NC works best against static sounds. Speech still makes it through. Just not as loud.

          If you're in a busy car enough people will hear it to be aware, and if you're on your own you will hear the announcement clearly.

          Besides it's really a one in 10 million chance you'll get stabbed on the metro, not worth worrying about. The chance of getting hit by a car in traffic is much higher. That feeling of always being in some kind of danger seems to be very American, I never really see that in people here in Europe. I think it's the sensationalism in the press there, every little incident is blown up to massive "BREAKING NEWS!" proportions.

      • buckle8017 5 hours ago
        Noise cancelling headphones on NYC public transit is insanity.
  • userbinator 2 hours ago
    I wonder if they considered using the existing metal tracks as antennae, or even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication to feed base stations in the trains themselves.

    So the ESN in the tunnels runs at 400 MHz, far lower than the 700 to 3,600 MHz range usually used by smartphones.

    It's worth noting that 450MHz was listed as one of the GSM bands, but apparently was never used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands#GSM-450

    • wolvoleo 17 minutes ago
      Weird because very few phones have that band. Requires much larger antennas. Twice as long as for 800Mhz.

      Edit: ah I see why, this is exclusively about the Emergency Services network, not for regular phones.

      In that sense it seems a bit similar to GSM-R used by the railways here.

  • Animats 3 hours ago
    This is the new system for emergency communications? TfL just finished up an upgrade on that in 2021. That upgrade was built by Thales.[1] That system is purely for operational use, and is not cell phone compatible. It's compatible with the gear cops and fire brigades use. Is it being replaced?

    As late as 2018, the classic century-old system, with two bare wires on insulators on the tunnel walls, was still maintained.[2] Clipping a telephone handset to the two wires would connect to a dispatcher, and the wires were placed so that reaching out of the driver's cab to do this was possible. In addition, squeezing the wires together by hand would trip a relay and cut traction power. Is that still operational? The 2011 replacement was ISDN.

    [1] https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/news-centre/press-releases/th...

    [2] https://www.railengineer.co.uk/communications-on-the-central...

    • 7952 1 hour ago
      The classic system does sound pretty elegant really.
    • xvilka 2 hours ago
      It always better to have a backup.
  • dfajgljsldkjag 7 hours ago
    I had assumed the delay was technical but it turns out it was mostly about finding a business model that worked for everyone. It is good they finally settled on a shared infrastructure approach so they do not have to crowd the tunnels with extra equipment.
  • cagz 1 hour ago
    I use the underground frequently. It doesn't really feel like half of it is covered. Where it is available, it works amazingly. I might have been using the other half by sheer luck.
  • zith 3 hours ago
    Interesting! I know Sweden was not first, but Stockholm has had 3g coverage in the subway since 2005 and 4g since 2016.
  • matham 5 hours ago
    I'm having a really hard reading this. Not only are the paragraphs are so short, they each feel like part of a uncompleted thought.

    The content doesn't feel AI generated, but maybe it is? I read somewhere that short paragraphs is an AI signature!?

  • timthorn 1 hour ago
    Are the dual redundant leaky feeders configured to act as a MIMO array?
  • dotBen 7 hours ago
    One of the frustrating things about international roaming in the UK is typically your plan does not include coverage on this neutral network on the underground
    • mikelward 7 minutes ago
      I don't think that's correct.

      With the old WiFi networks (Virgin, Vodafone WiFi, etc.), yes.

      With the new 4G+5G coverage, you can access that the same as you access above ground coverage.

    • inlustra 4 hours ago
      Source? As someone that comes back to London every month, I’ve been able to roam the same as anywhere else in the UK. I’d be shocked if this were true.
    • mgaunard 1 hour ago
      The main problem if you're roaming is that you're considered a lower-priority customer, and since the network is often saturated already, you don't get any bandwidth.
    • Brajeshwar 5 hours ago
      Did the UK stop people from just picking up a cheap SIM at the Airport? I always like a local number when traveling. Anyway, Indian Roaming plans are so cheap these days that it's much easier and cheaper to just subscribe to them as part of the plan. These days, I don’t even need to add/activate it or anything, the providers turn it ON when I start my phone outside India and turn it off when I re-activate back in India.
  • cedws 1 hour ago
    Definitely not. Try it in Tokyo, every single line, every single station has high speed coverage. I can’t recall signal ever dropping out for me.
    • Havoc 1 hour ago
      London’s first line predates tokyos by like 60 years and was literally the test ground for how to make underground’s

      The challenge isn’t the technology but rather the environment you’re trying to retrofit

      • mft_ 1 hour ago
        So if I follow, you’re saying that because London’s underground is older than Tokyo’s, it somehow changes the physical environment of the tunnels or their surroundings such that installing the required technology is more difficult?

        Please expand…

      • cedws 1 hour ago
        That's the standard excuse but it's the same on the Elizabeth line which was commissioned only a few years ago.
  • Tsiklon 7 hours ago
    From looking at the WiFi ssid’s broadcast at the New York subway stations, I believe Boldyn also does the phone coverage here too
  • bede 2 hours ago
    > There’s another distance limit at work here, and that is the speed of light. It takes milliseconds for the signal in your phone to reach the hotel above ground and be handed over to the mobile network.

    It takes roughly 100us for light to travel 30km – Can you explain how the speed of light is relevant here?

  • iLoveOncall 2 hours ago
    Anyone who lives in London knows that phone coverage on the Tube is anything but "cracked".
  • testdelacc1 2 hours ago
    As a resident with a phone problem I miss the underground not having any signal. Other people using TikTok doesn’t bother me so much because it’s relatively rare. My own tendencies with screen time bother me more. No internet actually forced me to read books more and I miss that.

    But this is a lot better for tourists who need the internet to navigate underground. So I’m pleased for them.

  • hexbin010 3 hours ago
    How London enabled TikTok addicts to annoy other passengers
  • inshard 3 hours ago
    The Paris metro figured this out perfectly way back in 2021 - full bars, 5G.
    • edent 2 hours ago
      The Paris metro is mostly cut-and-cover. It isn't very deep. The deepest tube lines are around 60m underground.
  • FridayoLeary 3 hours ago
    >There’s another distance limit at work here, and that is the speed of light. It takes milliseconds for the signal in your phone to reach the hotel above ground and be handed over to the mobile network. But if it takes too long to get from phone to hotel, then your phone call s..a.rt..s..t o. br..e..ak up. As it happens, that distance is about 12km, so Boldyn needs nine hotels around London to cover the whole of the Underground

    I find that interesting. Another fascinating rabbit hole the article has sent me down is that there is an unused station called north end. I've been down that stretch before and i had no idea. Does anyone know if passengers can see it?

  • bildabearg 8 hours ago
    [flagged]