I remember being on a concert relatively recently, a few years ago. nearly everyone had their phones up, mine was in a pocket. no one made a single movement that resembled dance, everyone just... stood still. that differed by a great measure from several concerts I attended circa 2018-19.
on both music fests, I was in flow. I've been dancing - it's a usual thing all humans naturally do when they hear rhythm that resonates with them unless they consciously resist dancing for one reason or another. though, this time, no one joined me. people just made space around me and pointed their cameras at me, which created a ton of unease and I eventually stopped. it was enough to get viral in local Telegrams, but I had no joy in that. in the moment, I wanted to shout, "duh, why aren't you all dancing? put down your goddamn cameras, you can always scroll later!"
phones, primarily due to their current addictive implementation, are such a killjoy. I hope that one day, devices like Clicks Communicator will change this.
Wait, were things different as recently as 2018? I just remember when I was into concerts, circa 1998, most people just stood there unless it was a big hit playing, but a significant amount of people would always dance or just jump like crazy near the middle of the pitch. I did recently went to a punk concert from a band from the late 80s , so most people there were my age. It was just like the old times. A lot of people went crazy as this was a band that had only good songs to play! But some around me thought that they could just stand there and film with their phone. They quickly realized that they would had to move away as nearly everyone around just started jumping like maniacs, just like in the 90s . I can’t comment on the new generation though as like I said, I don’t frequent the scene much anymore and when I do the younger people only go to accompany their parents, I guess.
I'm so happy that my prime concert-going days were 1998 to 2013. People just came for the concert and were fully immersed in the music and the vibe. Though admittedly, concerts of groups that were not too well-known, but also not unknown, were the best. At more mainstream bands people would come for the hits. But as something like a Nomeansno concert everyone was locked in.
I also don't really understand what the point of constantly filming is. Some groups regularly put high-quality concerts on Youtube [1], so if you want to re-experience a similar concert afterwards you can.
I guess it's more about documenting your life's story on socials. But what's the point of documenting the life that you don't really live?
Some artists (e.g. John Zorn) forbid filming, which is IMO the best way to go. It's all about experiencing it in the moment.
[1] Bands like King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard even put pretty much every concert online now in full 4K, professionally filmed glory.
Berghain puts stickers on your phone cameras, it’s pretty non intrusive while substantially improving the party experience. I didn’t see a single phone in the air on the dancefloor. It was quite refreshing, felt like partying in the 2000s.
> More clubs have also been instituting “no phones” policies to reclaim the dance floor’s social energy. Venues including Signal, a small club that opened last year in Brooklyn’s East Williamsburg neighborhood, and recent addition Refuge, located just around the corner, cover all phone cameras with a sticker. Other larger, established venues like House of Yes and Elsewhere have also banned the use of phones inside.
Cool. Now do that at the entrance to swimming pools too.
Has become a pest. Even inside. Even directly at or in the water. No matter what the signs say.
At least regarding that I miss the last millennium: no omnipresence of cameras.
Not a bunch of entitled pseudo-influencers filming everything and everyone.
I went to a show at Fabric in London during Kubecon last spring and they did the same thing. I still saw the odd person who peeled it off taking selfies or pics of friends inside but that was definitely the exception.
Perhaps it can be enforced with a type of laser that doesn’t damage the human eye but completely obliterates a phone camera. As long as you keep the sticker on nothing happens to your phone.
I've seen this in Asia, there's an employee who basically is standing at a raised spot in the corner and if you take out your phone they shoot a small laser pointer right into the camera, it messes with the video. They can't get it on there all the time but a video where half of it (or more they are surprisingly accurate) is a strobing laser becomes pretty garbage anyways. While they are doing that another employee/bouncer comes over and warns them, have seen people get kicked out for pulling it out a second time.
> a type of laser that doesn’t damage the human eye but completely obliterates a phone camera
If we are asking for impossible things why make it so scifi coded? I would much prefer cute bunny unicorns who suddenly grow fangs and bite people who are taking pictures. They are both equaly realistic but the bunny unicorns are nicer to think of.
Of course. There is no doubt that you can shoot cameras out. That's not the problem. The problem is if you try to scale that effect up to the size of a club what you have won't be eye safe. There is not enough margin between "safe for human eyes" and "destroys cameras" to construct a practical system. Especially not to the safety requirements of an entertainment venue.
If there are people filming on their dancefloor you're in a shitty club.
OK, so the author and a handful of people they quite (including some global superstars who obviously don't represent any kind of norm) seem to be finding themselves in shitty clubs more often than they used to. And therefore we conclude all clubs are shitty now?
Nightlife is the least heterogeneous and least globalised form of public life that exists in "the west". If someone thinks they can make sweeping statements about the state of raving writ large, I don't really take them seriously.
Anyone else that has been outside in the past 10 years can see it. Doesn’t have to be dancing it can be eating in a restaurant, going to a public pool, walking down the street. Younger folks absolutely are feeling the sense of everything being recorded. It sucks because you don’t know what will pop up online so a lot will not do anything (swim, dance, do anything moderately weird).
Bloomberg is an interesting news outlet. My whole life I thought of them as purely financial-based reporting. But I've seen lots of lifestyle stuff from them too. And usually well written and interesting angles.
Bloomberg News is at least 2 organizations (and maybe 3+ now).
The original Bloomberg News was purely financial. They then bought Businessweek and published Bloomberg Businessweek but also leveraged the acquisition to build out their general news under the Bloomberg News banner. They’ve had other acquisitions as well to expand their scope. The one I’m particularly interested in is Citylab which means they have probably some of the best urbanism and housing policy related news coverage.
they have to start pivoting as their core business model of charging a human being ~$30k USD to access a data terminal is dead with AI.
now instead of having 10 human agents using 10 human terminals that costs $300k you can have 100 AI agents orchestrated into a single terminal that costs $30k
its especially dead because people can begin to develop macros and tools to create alternatives to their system using raw data models, and filters, as well as machine-tools rather than just using transformer models to process reports
The phone is a kind of shield for the person holding it above their head. It safely removes them from having to fully engage with what's in front of them.
The camera both removes the person from the scene and also by recording enables the event to be captured in a format to be reviewed again. The videos are never actually intended to be watched again or shared with friends though but they are proof that the person was physically there (if not wholly present).
There was a video I recently saw about how birthday parties should be filmed. Instead of a video of just the birthday girl in front of a cake reacting to her friends singing happy birthday, she takes the camera, flips it so we don't see her anymore but we see her friends singing facing her with faces full of love.
I've never understood the appeal of so-called "dance" events.
Crowds of thousands like sardines swaying-at-best to the DJ being treated as a rockstar but without the talent and entertainment as far as I can see.
Note: this isn't a rockist viewpoint; I'm a dancer who is frustrated at the lack of options to actually move about in space on a dancefloor with other dancers who are there to actually, you know, dance.
I hate the way the word has been co-opted by what appears to be a generation of drugged-out sheep who seem incapable of soulful movement.
> “Nobody was asking for the screen to be bigger. Nobody was asking for more production, more lasers. Literally, the number one complaint every year was, ‘Hey, you guys are overselling these shows, we want more room to dance.’”
Just regarding the drugs: I can totally understand when people are anti-drugs. I’d say it still depends on someone’s personality though. I’ve always thought that drugs and alcohol don’t really change your personality they just amplify it. If someone’s not really a dancer and maybe a bit anxious (seemingly every kid these days) they end up taking a load of drugs to compensate but just end up vegetated. If you’re already someone who feels the music and feels free enough to dance then honestly taking some drugs can be quite the experience.
Yeah my point is really about how the drugs now seem to be a necessary catalyst for the communal experience they are going for - but what they are going for isn't dance in the sense of moving about in creative individual physical expression.
Whereas the dance scenes I've formerly attended were heavy in drug use but the main thing people are there for is dancing.
Yeh. I mean I ultimately completely agree with your last paragraph. Society seems to have shifted and no amount of lasers and drugs is able to make people move! Also to your point moving actually takes up a lot of space and, thus, less tickets. It’s really better for maximising profits if people don’t move and ideally advertise the event for you.
you know that people really go there to dance and enjoy the music?
A friend of mine is a professional (modern) dancer, so has as much credentials as you can, and she enjoys dancing in berlins nightlife. She finds the space for expression and creativity in her movement, in tune with the music. Of course, the is not much physical space, which is how the dance-movements evolved as they have (e.g you never spin and you feet never really leave the space they are on). But this is part of the culture, and not a problem. If you can't find it then that's your problem, but doesn't mean that other's can not freely express themselves there.
There's more dance-events. Not sure where you are, but you can usually go to a bachata night as it's quite trendy now, northern soul is also getting some revivial. There's also more disco-oriented events usually at various LGBTQ+-parties, I think especially italo-disco is a lot of fun. You can just go out and dance. Lindy Hop also has a solid community around the world.
Thanks - yes I'm aware of most of those (my handle here is a northern soul record) and do attend but they are relatively niche and I resent the current way mainstream dance music events are presented to the world as something that seems counter to the notion.
Btw I've seen great dancers who barely move their feet; my concern is with the culture where individual expression is subordinated to the cult of commune and the DJ.
As others here have pointed out that is partly down to the promoters packing in as many people as they can; I think control moving over the years from love of the form to strictly commerce has caused a significant change in culture.
Dance isn’t just an art form. It’s also about the commune. It’s also about letting yourself go and sometimes with a DJ or artist to guide the experience.
Sounds like concerts are not a good space for the enjoyment you get out of dance. But it’s a great space for the dance experience many others want.
My seven year old boy likes to spin in circles. I think he likes the stimulation from the inner ear fluid sloshing around. Dancing in a club seems similar.
(Parent comment) Me too! But that's my point, you can't spin or do anything at these events, except for small pockets at the fringes; dancers are outliers now.
The attention economy requires sacrificial likes, lest you lose followers. People can't just enjoy themselves, they need to generate FOMO or do/show something outrageous in front of a camera 24/7.
Dancing is fun. Dancing in a crowd is freeing because you feel less self conscious. I encourage my kids to dance. DJs.. I don't know. I guess I grew up in an era when they weren't stars.
Search youtube for laserface and gareth emery. The sea of phones are all recording the stage. So they are the same color as the show. They turn the otherewise dark audience into a reflection, adding to the effect. This is not a bad thing.
As for dancing, dancing is for clubs. Clubs are not concert halls. You dance at a club. You watch a show at a hall. Only DJ-types who are confused about whether they are record-spinning robots or stars in a spotlight cannot tell the difference.
Perhaps they could have communicated beforehand that the performance would be available for free on YouTube afterwards, so that people don’t need to record.
Here is the thing, I still remember when there was no recording, what happens in the venue stays in the venue, or gets talked with others that shared the experience.
If I am paying $700 to see Lady Gaga you bet your ass I’m taking some pictures.
I actually find k-pop shows somewhat refreshing because there’s zero negative stigma for wanting to record pictures or video. I can easily tell that Gen Z/Alpha has no problem enjoying themselves and even dancing while recording a video.
If a phone is blocking your view the venue is designed wrong, or you have the rare concertgoer who doesn’t know how to hold their phone in a way that preserves the view for others, which is rare for the younger audiences. (I don’t go to venues with flat floors anymore. Often they weren’t even designed for concerts in the first place).
But the official footage will not be the same as the show as you lived it. The effects look radically different from seat to seat. And your friends wont be there either.
I'm mostly too old to go to clubs, but to me techno and other electronic music is not about stages or visual effects, quite the opposite. Well OK, VFX can be cool.
But getting lost in music, in a darkened room with some intentionally disorienting VFX; or simply none, loud electronic music in a room with many people is already quite an experience...
that's quite different from being at a festival or at a show like this, which looks more like a musical opera performance to me.
For big room EDM, was there ever a time when it was not about laser shows etc?
I mean there's nothing wrong with stage shows, pop music and lasers.
on both music fests, I was in flow. I've been dancing - it's a usual thing all humans naturally do when they hear rhythm that resonates with them unless they consciously resist dancing for one reason or another. though, this time, no one joined me. people just made space around me and pointed their cameras at me, which created a ton of unease and I eventually stopped. it was enough to get viral in local Telegrams, but I had no joy in that. in the moment, I wanted to shout, "duh, why aren't you all dancing? put down your goddamn cameras, you can always scroll later!"
phones, primarily due to their current addictive implementation, are such a killjoy. I hope that one day, devices like Clicks Communicator will change this.
But man that sucks, there should be a phone free zone in the concert.
I also don't really understand what the point of constantly filming is. Some groups regularly put high-quality concerts on Youtube [1], so if you want to re-experience a similar concert afterwards you can.
I guess it's more about documenting your life's story on socials. But what's the point of documenting the life that you don't really live?
Some artists (e.g. John Zorn) forbid filming, which is IMO the best way to go. It's all about experiencing it in the moment.
[1] Bands like King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard even put pretty much every concert online now in full 4K, professionally filmed glory.
> More clubs have also been instituting “no phones” policies to reclaim the dance floor’s social energy. Venues including Signal, a small club that opened last year in Brooklyn’s East Williamsburg neighborhood, and recent addition Refuge, located just around the corner, cover all phone cameras with a sticker. Other larger, established venues like House of Yes and Elsewhere have also banned the use of phones inside.
Has become a pest. Even inside. Even directly at or in the water. No matter what the signs say.
At least regarding that I miss the last millennium: no omnipresence of cameras. Not a bunch of entitled pseudo-influencers filming everything and everyone.
"I've seen this on planet earth"
Afghanistan? China? Tonga?
But it's probably a nightmare from the liability perspective.
If we are asking for impossible things why make it so scifi coded? I would much prefer cute bunny unicorns who suddenly grow fangs and bite people who are taking pictures. They are both equaly realistic but the bunny unicorns are nicer to think of.
If there are people filming on their dancefloor you're in a shitty club.
OK, so the author and a handful of people they quite (including some global superstars who obviously don't represent any kind of norm) seem to be finding themselves in shitty clubs more often than they used to. And therefore we conclude all clubs are shitty now?
Nightlife is the least heterogeneous and least globalised form of public life that exists in "the west". If someone thinks they can make sweeping statements about the state of raving writ large, I don't really take them seriously.
Maybe journalism isn't totally dead yet.
The original Bloomberg News was purely financial. They then bought Businessweek and published Bloomberg Businessweek but also leveraged the acquisition to build out their general news under the Bloomberg News banner. They’ve had other acquisitions as well to expand their scope. The one I’m particularly interested in is Citylab which means they have probably some of the best urbanism and housing policy related news coverage.
now instead of having 10 human agents using 10 human terminals that costs $300k you can have 100 AI agents orchestrated into a single terminal that costs $30k
its especially dead because people can begin to develop macros and tools to create alternatives to their system using raw data models, and filters, as well as machine-tools rather than just using transformer models to process reports
it never was, nor will ever be :)
The camera both removes the person from the scene and also by recording enables the event to be captured in a format to be reviewed again. The videos are never actually intended to be watched again or shared with friends though but they are proof that the person was physically there (if not wholly present).
There was a video I recently saw about how birthday parties should be filmed. Instead of a video of just the birthday girl in front of a cake reacting to her friends singing happy birthday, she takes the camera, flips it so we don't see her anymore but we see her friends singing facing her with faces full of love.
Nightclub stickers over smartphone rule divides the dancefloor (85 points, 91 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42352825
I've never understood the appeal of so-called "dance" events.
Crowds of thousands like sardines swaying-at-best to the DJ being treated as a rockstar but without the talent and entertainment as far as I can see.
Note: this isn't a rockist viewpoint; I'm a dancer who is frustrated at the lack of options to actually move about in space on a dancefloor with other dancers who are there to actually, you know, dance.
I hate the way the word has been co-opted by what appears to be a generation of drugged-out sheep who seem incapable of soulful movement.
> “Nobody was asking for the screen to be bigger. Nobody was asking for more production, more lasers. Literally, the number one complaint every year was, ‘Hey, you guys are overselling these shows, we want more room to dance.’”
Whereas the dance scenes I've formerly attended were heavy in drug use but the main thing people are there for is dancing.
A friend of mine is a professional (modern) dancer, so has as much credentials as you can, and she enjoys dancing in berlins nightlife. She finds the space for expression and creativity in her movement, in tune with the music. Of course, the is not much physical space, which is how the dance-movements evolved as they have (e.g you never spin and you feet never really leave the space they are on). But this is part of the culture, and not a problem. If you can't find it then that's your problem, but doesn't mean that other's can not freely express themselves there.
There's more dance-events. Not sure where you are, but you can usually go to a bachata night as it's quite trendy now, northern soul is also getting some revivial. There's also more disco-oriented events usually at various LGBTQ+-parties, I think especially italo-disco is a lot of fun. You can just go out and dance. Lindy Hop also has a solid community around the world.
Btw I've seen great dancers who barely move their feet; my concern is with the culture where individual expression is subordinated to the cult of commune and the DJ.
As others here have pointed out that is partly down to the promoters packing in as many people as they can; I think control moving over the years from love of the form to strictly commerce has caused a significant change in culture.
Dance isn’t just an art form. It’s also about the commune. It’s also about letting yourself go and sometimes with a DJ or artist to guide the experience.
Sounds like concerts are not a good space for the enjoyment you get out of dance. But it’s a great space for the dance experience many others want.
As for dancing, dancing is for clubs. Clubs are not concert halls. You dance at a club. You watch a show at a hall. Only DJ-types who are confused about whether they are record-spinning robots or stars in a spotlight cannot tell the difference.
https://youtu.be/9-ochJEQpb0
If I am paying $700 to see Lady Gaga you bet your ass I’m taking some pictures.
I actually find k-pop shows somewhat refreshing because there’s zero negative stigma for wanting to record pictures or video. I can easily tell that Gen Z/Alpha has no problem enjoying themselves and even dancing while recording a video.
If a phone is blocking your view the venue is designed wrong, or you have the rare concertgoer who doesn’t know how to hold their phone in a way that preserves the view for others, which is rare for the younger audiences. (I don’t go to venues with flat floors anymore. Often they weren’t even designed for concerts in the first place).
WE ALL KNOW THEY WERE THERE!
That's how you sound.
But getting lost in music, in a darkened room with some intentionally disorienting VFX; or simply none, loud electronic music in a room with many people is already quite an experience...
that's quite different from being at a festival or at a show like this, which looks more like a musical opera performance to me.
For big room EDM, was there ever a time when it was not about laser shows etc?
I mean there's nothing wrong with stage shows, pop music and lasers.