Recently, there were municipal elections in France, and there was Israeli interference there as well [0] (the article is pay-walled and in French but it's written in the title at least).
Europeans give too much value to their sympathies. Given that it's now clear to anyone that will open their eyes that there is no international law, Europe ends up looking like an old grandpa yelling at the clouds, powerless to actually do something. Sympathies are not enough.
Sympathies translate into trade policy, arms embargoes, diplomatic recognition, and votes at international bodies. The idea that soft power is meaningless because it isn't a missile is a contradiction in terms. Europe is Israel's largest trade partner. That's not nothing.
Also, "there is no international law" is a strange argument to make in defense of a country that spends enormous resources lobbying international institutions and running influence ops in allied democracies. If none of it mattered, why bother?
So it sounds like these guys posed as investors, schmoozed politicians, and got them on tape agreeing to do corrupt stuff. The recordings were then released to influence voters.
The thing about this is, the response to it will depend on who the politicians were. For example, if it was the "far right" politicians caught on tape, there wouldn't be the same furore about election interference. The recordings may of course be edited to be misleading.
The videos weren't directly about bribing. They were more about people talking about someone else taking a bribe. Sadly all of the videos were edited, so we don't have full context.
I'm from Slovenia and it is very obvious what is going on behind the scenes. It's a public secret at this point that both the parties in charge (especially the people in/around Gibanje Svoboda) and the various people "from behind" take their cuts at big infrastructure projects.
Just to be fair, this is not unique to the current government. We've had several similar corruption scandals throughout several governments; it was almost always related to infrastructure projects.
A few days prior to this leak there was a separate one posted on Facebook (that I sadly can't find anymore; it has been covered by several media outlets here [1]), in which the former GS secretary reveals who gets what % and that they have to "set our own people to the right places, as (2023) floods cleanup is where the most money flows".
It is also not a secret that the mayor of Ljubljana, Janković, is able to bypass all laws to issue building permits in exchange for a 20% "donation" to city-ran sports clubs, which are ran by his friends. This was revealed in the case of an Austrian investor and his luxury flats at Celovška cesta, Ljubljana, a few months ago.
It's also plain obvious that the state media (RTV SLO) is trying hard to shift the conversation towards the origin of the leaks rather than the supposed corruption revealed in them. The practice had usually been to investigate the content first.
This skips over what the article actually describes. Švarc Pipan's account isn't of politicians getting caught, it's of an entrapment operation. The fake investors "seemed to know nothing about data centers," kept pushing her toward suggesting a bribe, and paid a €500 tab in cash. She says she refused to lobby and told them she was legally barred from doing so at the time.
There is no direct proof that Janša is linked to them, however plausible it seems.
(the parent comment has been edited to remove this claim shortly after I made my comment responding to it)
SOVA has only been able to confirm that an unlabeled Israeli charter landed at Brnik and that a taxi ride with two businessmen was made from the airport to the street in Ljubljana where SDS is headquartered.
This could have also been any two legit businessmen, who might have come with any other flight, for any other purpose. It’s not confirmed whether they entered the SDS building either.
It’s also anachronistic - the videos appear to have been filmed a while ago (given the statements made and the held positions of the people in them), while that flight has only happened a few weeks ago.
Švarc Pipan also didn’t refuse to lobby, she just brushed it off by saying “it’s not lobbying” after bring told it indeed was, right after bragging about lobbying.
Just more cultural appropriation. Black Cube, Blackrock, Blackstone... And not a black person in sight. Someone even took Blackstreet which was already ours. /s
> The god El is commonly associated with Saturn and commonly referred to as Saturn El.
This is demonstrably false; see Liber 777 cols. I, II, V, and VII.
Saturn is assigned key scale 3 (col I) and is associated with the Name of God "Tetragrammaton Elohim," while "El" is traditionally reserved for the fourth sephira, representing Jupiter.
Six is a solar number, attributed to Christ and Ra (though also Osiris; but see the associated key scale and its myriad attributions). Jupiter, again, is ascribed number three, not six.
Black is indeed the Queen scale color associated to Saturn, though just as commonly attributed to Earth, as the final receptacle of all the other "colors" of creation (see key scales 3 and 10 in cols XV, XVI, XVIII).
Only if you consider Crowley to be the alpha and omega.
Wikipedia cites Brill's New Pauly, which I found a copy of online, and that in turn just cites a German article from the early 20th century. I don't read German and have to stop there, but I do have to wonder how well the assertion is actually supported.
Or you could just reference Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity) which claims numerous associations between Saturn and El. Or you could conduct an internet search for Saturn El and find a plethora of additional resources that confirm the association between the two.
And Steve Jobs priced the first Apple computer at - $666.66
The influence of the Kabbalah and the occult sciences on Silicon Valley and the world at large is quite obvious if one is looking and doesn't brush these subjects off as woohoo / conspiratorial (which most people do).
Yes, the kabba is also a nod to Saturn (which is why I said all Abrahamic religions incorporate some Saturn worship into them), and the people walking around the kabba make the rings of Saturn (if you employ some time-lapse photography of them walking around, it's quite obvious). Saturn has a hexagonal shaped storm on its north pole (and the all-seeing eye on its south pole). If you collapse a cube into two dimensions, you get a hexagon.
Not observed and yet depicted in symbolism by different cultures dating back to Babylon. Quite the mystery indeed... I'm sure you have an explanation for how the Dogon tribe knew more about the Sirius star system than we did until relatively recently as well.
It's quite egotistical and foolish to assume we're more advanced and know more than our ancient ancestors, or that what is written in our history books is objective truth.
> I'm sure you have an explanation for how the Dogon tribe knew more about the Sirius star system than we did until relatively recently as well.
I have a hypothesis, which incorporates the fact that the Dogon were not reported to have such knowledge until the 1930s, well after the discovery of Sirius B.
> depicted in symbolism by different cultures dating back to Babylon
A bit of searching is coming up short, beyond a claim about shackles on the ankles of a Roman statue of Saturn (the god) symbolizing the rings; I find this less convincing than the idea that they symbolize shackles (the ones with which he was bound in Tartaros).
> I have a hypothesis, which incorporates the fact that the Dogon were not reported to have such knowledge until the 1930s, well after the discovery of Sirius B.
That's not a fact, because there are several sources / individuals that dispute this claim.
> A bit of searching is coming up short, beyond a claim about shackles on the ankles of a Roman statue of Saturn (the god) symbolizing the rings; I find this less convincing than the idea that they symbolize shackles (the ones with which he was bound in Tartaros).
Well you're pretty terrible at searching the internet then, considering I can type Sumerian saturn symbolism into any image search engine and find a plethora of examples.
The desperation of the state is becoming apparent. Look for more election interference in the future. It will be more sophisticated. And likely can be traced in past elections.
I think it's also true that government officials around the world are less inclined to just go along with it, since Israel has lost control of public perception. So the tactics have to become more brazen and forceful to achieve the same results, increasing the risk of exposure and/or blowback.
I don't think for a minute that this stuff is anything new ... to the contrary. I think what is new is that, every time they step in it, the whole world now quickly knows.
If they could get people to install a mobile UI app that fetches instructions on what to up/down-vote, what to flag/vouch then they could and unlikely anyone would notice.
It is unlikely that enough people would check their up/down vote history, vouch and flag history and even then some would assume they fat-fingered such things.
Such a UI could also save and upload username and password to another site. Some people use the same creds on multiple sites.
I think a larger question to ask is if could they also be manipulating the people themselves who are reading these message boards prior to this post which later impacts such message board's voting.
Of course. So are their allies in the Trump admin, note also the abuse of the flagging mechanism to take down any news that might not portray them in the best light.
Lol. If Israel could manipulate HN do you think so many anti-Israel posts would appear on the front page, and each mitigating or nuanced comment about Israel would be flagged so quickly? No, Israel does not control or manipulate HN.
Practically everything of political attention gets flagged, even if it is tech related.
There may well be a pro-Israel brigade going out of their way to move that along, but there is an equally rapid anti-Israel brigade. Nothing remains on the front page for long.
They do it in a more subtle way on HN. They use friendly journalists to push technologies and solutions they have backend access too. Obviously the HN crowd is a very a tough crowd the fool, but it does not mean they are not trying.
Notice how the tech media will decide particular companies as the only ones worth talking about in certain segments. It's not only money behind this, there are other motivations.
Not a single pro-Israel article, nor even any article that even mentions Israel neutrally, has ever reached the front page of HN in the entire history of HN.
So, no. Israel is not "winning the up- and downvote war" of HN.
It's insane the power and influence Israelis have.
In the US it's blatant, from the insane amounts of money and weaponry sent to Israel (why are american taxpayers subsidizing Israel exactly? It's not like they are neither poor nor US owes them) to the recent events in the middle east.
But even in Europe. Here in Italy the coalition government has multiple high profile politicians that just happen to be shareholders or CEOs of security companies owned by Israelis. And just so it happens that the same security and communication companies get lots of work by the Italian government. And when journalists brought this up because they didn't report it to neither the government nor parliament, nothing happened anyway.
It's a scandal really, but if you write or say it, you're labeled as anti semitic, so criticizing and surfacing this terrible stuff is always controversial.
As a Jewish American, I don't think it's antisemitic. We really shouldn't be sending any money or weapons to Israel or joining them in any wars.
What I do think is a bit antisemitic is the suggestion that Israel is somehow unique here. Russia, China, and the U.S. are all doing this. Heck we just captured Maduro and killed leader of Iran. I just think a country like Russia is way more effective and subtle when it comes to election manipulation, especially in Eastern Europe.
So, if I don't follow your what-about-ism, Im a racist? Thats what you are saying there; We all know that the US, china, Russia, and 99% of the countries in the world are doing this. Why is it racist to pick on the COUNTRY of Israel, which right now is trying its hardest to wipe out entire countries? We know Russia is doing that right now in Ukraine, but that does not eliminate what Israel is doing.
> why are american taxpayers subsidizing Israel exactly?
The same reason USA is subsidizing half the middle eastern countries - its a strategic location near extremely important transit routes, near important resources, and right between major powers so the region doesn't squarely fall in any major power's sphere of influence and thus up to be influenced.
I dont know why all these conspiracy theories think the usa<->israel relationship is so strange, but dont blink at the relationship usa has with egypt, uae, saudi arabia, bharain, etc.
We primarily fund the other Middle Eastern countries to keep Israel safe. Were it not for Israel, we would just have normal diplomatic relations with them.
I wouldn't go that far. The U.S. and other European powers have a long history of involvement in Middle East politics. Significant parts of the Middle East were once parts of various European empires. Many of them gained their independence only to find there were still a lot of strings and (pipe)lines of exploitation attached.
The U.S. did more than its fair share to glom onto those lines of exploitation and keep them alive at the expense of locals. e.g. Iran is what it is today because of U.S. oil interests. The CIA installed an authoritarian Shah when Iran's (at the time) democratic government started taking control of its own oil industry (American oil companies would have had to start paying taxes). Rule under the Shah was "unpleasant" for Iranians and revolution was the direct response. Hence, theocracy.
Israel is a special case in the Middle East. The zionist movement gained state sponsors and convinced European powers (and the U.S.) to pour money in instead of sucking it out. How they did that is a question that stretches back well into the 19th century. I'd argue that a lot of it was the result of people who had their hearts in the right places. Things just went sideways when it came to Israelis and Palestinians co-existing peacefully. At least some of the idealists of the early zionist movement honestly believed the influx of Jewish people would be a benefit to Arabs already living in Palestine.
> Things just went sideways when it came to Israelis and Palestinians co-existing peacefully. At least some of the idealists of the early zionist movement honestly believed the influx of Jewish people would be a benefit to Arabs already living in Palestine.
Teodore Hertzl (Zionism’s founder) was explicit about the need to ethically cleanse the Palestinians from their land.
Herzl, nor Hertzl. Do you have a citation or resource for this?
(I ask not because it's inconceivable, but because Herzl died almost half a century before Israel declared its independence. Ze'ev Jabotinsky is more consistently identified with revisionist Zionism/territorial maximalism.)
> "We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."
Israel is, to use a Pacific-theatre term, our unsinkable aircraft carrier. A better Pakistan.
> long history Israel has of rigging the US elections by funding their pet congressmen
Americans were, until recently, pro Israel. The funding worked because amplifying anti-Israeli sentiments among electeds lost them votes. Now that that balance of perceptions has shifted, the effect has as well. And note that pro-Israel != Israel; lots of America pro-Israeli influence is entirely homegrown.
My guess is, after 1900+ years of being treated a certain way, and within a human lifetime of an industrialized attempt of extermination, they don't particularly care about scruples.
As a Jew and I don't think that is true at all and feel it is a bit of a dangerous characterization. Jews have just as much scruples as any other groups.
What I do think is true is that Jews have more fear of others based on past treatment and even a lot of current rhetoric and may justify actions as necessary for safety.
We do also happen to be a very small group of people. For instance, Palestinians have 1 billion Muslims supporting them.
That said, I happen to think that these unscrupulous policies will actually cause more harm than good.
Actually - it's not Israeli influence. It's pro-Israel influence. Important difference. This includes lobby organisations funded or founded by wealthy Jews, conservative Christian lobbyists, pro-arms trade interests, and geopolitical interests (essentially Israel acts as a US military proxy they can use to keep the middle east in check). Not quite Israel secretly pulling strings (which is quite rightly dismissed as traditional boring anti-semetic conspiracy theory wearing a different hat), more of an alignment of interests, which dictator Netenyahu is currently taking advantage of to pursue his own career agenda (complete destruction of Iran and security of Israel from the mindset of a paranoid Israeli nationalist). Naturally, this involves attempting to buy out journalists and promote propaganda - and the Israeli attempts to do this are usually rather inept. What's far more effective is the already existing domestic pro-Israel lobby groups that have a completely above board, and vastly more effective way of funding Israel (and the vastly more powerful US military-financial-geopolitical interests).
Agree with your post. As a Jewish American, I have been advocating that it would be better for Americans and even Jews if we stop sending money to Israel and put political pressure on Israel to abandon illegal settlements, end the war on Gaza and work towards a resolution of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
Unfortunately, this POV doesn't seem to be widely held by many woth influence.
Do you have any sources for this? I know a lot of Jews in the U.S. support Israel, but not sure why they would care about settlements if they don't live there.
And if what you say is true, why is Netanyahu still in power?
That said I don't think your point undermines my suggestion that the U.S. should get out of the business of funding Israel and joining it in any wars over there.
The tapes show prominent Slovenian figures apparently discussing corruption, illegal lobbying and the misuse of state funds.
Is there any evidence that the tape is fraudulent? The article doesn't provide any. I wonder if anybody even read the article other than words "Israeli firm" and jumped to a lynching
Giora Eiland is the architect of "General's Plan". If anything, this scumbag criminal should have been locked up the moment he touched down in Ljubljana with his "company".
"The plan, conceived by retired major general and former head of the National Security Council Giora Eiland and presented to the Knesset by a group of several retired Israeli generals, proposed giving approximately 300,000 Palestinians a one-week evacuation period to depart from the northern third of Gaza before designating it a military exclusion zone. Under this strategy, anyone remaining in the area would be considered a combatant. The plan would then implement a complete siege that would block essential supplies until militant surrender, denying all essential supplies including medicine, fuel, food, and water"
Russia has no resorces to do that, no matter how many times you retell the myth about "troll factories", "Russia did Brexit" and all the other lies / half truths which US, UK, Israel and other western states told and continue to tell to divert the attention from the enormous scale of their propaganda industry.
Interesting. I have vey limited knowledge of Slovenian politics, but it often seems that whoever gets elected ends up facing corruption charges and ends up in prison after the next election cycle.
Since Janez Jansa will be prime minister he will be charged for corruption by end of his term and this could be the third time for him to go to prison (the first instance happened under the socialist regime, so maybe that does not count).
Anyway, I do not think Israelis needed to work hard here to find some dirt.
I wonder when people will stop being scared to speak out. Is it once they lose their job due to stolen data? Is it once Palantir decides they are a threat and they lose their freedom? Is it once they lose their own land? Is it after starting the 10th war?
Lol. These NoKings protests are so incredibly pathetic and ineffective. These bunch of airheads standing on the side of a road or bridge with close to non-existent foot traffic so there is not the smallest possibility of them inconveniencing anyone.
What are they even expecting their so called protests to achieve anyway. These people have absolutely no goals or plans to have any. Guess it's a way for them to have an roadside party instead of whinging about politics online lol.
1. It's the first of the year, there will be more NoKings
2. There are many more protest besides NoKings
3. Direct Action is better than no action. We only vote once every 1/2/4 years. This helps get people moving, to take their first steps. Case in point, this year I am printing whistles and information
At the risk of stating the obvious, Black Cube is an actual private intelligence firm that sells spy services [1], while Palantir is a software firm that sells software (even if that software is used by intelligence, gov, etc). You can go spin up a free Foundry instance [2] and test it, and it doesn't have secret buttons to imprison people.
And yet both these technologies are being used to subvert democracy and suppress opposition… almost like it doesn’t need to be fully automated fascism to be fascistic.
So is the allegation that this private intelligence firm tried to induce members of the government party to offer a bribe. They then published the recorded conversations.
I guess what is missing from the article is was the videos misleading or did they really get offered the bribe? Because if its the latter, its kind of hard to feel sympathy for a corrupt official getting caught even if the mechanism was problematic.
The videos weren't directly about bribing. They were more about people talking about someone else taking a bribe. Sadly all of the videos were edited, so we don't have full context.
It isn't corruption or the exposure of corruption that is the crime to European elites. The crime is doing something that will cause voters to choose something that they do not want the voters to choose.
If you are corrupt, and that corruption helps the opposition, you are accused of election manipulation. If you expose corruption, and that exposure helps the opposition, you are accused of election manipulation.
Meanwhile, the US is pouring billions of dollars into their elections, and if questioned, the questioning is considered an authoritarian encroachment on human rights. The US can make their officials into unpersons with sanctions for doing their jobs with integrity, and they'll just go along with it, tsk-tsking at the official in question.
Too bad for Golob, though - since it's Israel doing it for Israeli reasons, the "left-liberals" won't be able to get any of their usual support to attack them, because it's Israelis all the way down now. Ukraine is old news and competing with Israel for weapons, so there's no need for NATO-lackey Golob anymore.
There was no rigging or any manipulation of votes. Current and previous government officials were caught bragging about their previous corrupt adventures. The government after some initial shock came up with a story about foreign intervention. Slovenian newspapers and journalist activist carried it all the way to Brussels in order bank on negative emotions about Israel and hopped people will think about that. There was no institutional response, because the current government has cleaned institutions of people not loyal to them. It's a rather sad situation. The society is deeply divided.
When similar thing happened in Belgium, the corrupt people were immediately punished and nobody cared who exposed them.
Thing is, the ones "exposing" them are already known as corrupt from multiple previous scandals, now all they did was get some people on camera which say that the other side is also corrupt. While none of this is good, I'd still vote for the ones supposedly somewhat corrupt instead of those known to be fully corrupt.
Yes, pretty much. It's much more obvious if you take into account the Počivalšek leaks before the previous elections and compare the media response to this time.
People hate Ticketmaster. For good reason. TM throws on all these fees, clearly engages in third-party selling, makings buying difficult and jacks up prices. All of this is known. But what's less known is that artists, especially big artists, like Ticketmaster. Why? Because TM is a sacrificial anode. It takes all the hate but adding junk fees that in part go to the artist. The artist can say they're selling seats from as low as $20 in press releases while the least they will get for a seat is $30 because of all the fees.
Being hated is a service you can sell because it takes away attention from what you're doing. You get to blame this third-party but you're still absolutely complicit in everything they're doing. You see where this is going?
Israel is America's Ticketmaster. Anything bad that Israel or an Israeli firm does, the US could end today with a phone call by simply saying "we're cutting off aid if you don't stop doing". The price of this is to be the sacrificial anode for what is actually American foreign policy. There are well-funded and organized efforts to whitewash Israel's reputation and those were successful up until the last few years.
Israel is a huge supplier of spyware eg Pegasus [1]. Despotic regimes use this to spy on journalists and opposition figures and has likely been used to locate and kill them. You think we couldn't stop that? Of course we can. But we like that because, again, Israel takes the heat.
So Israel interfering in Slovenia's elections is the least surprising thing I've heard. I'd be surprised if it wasn't true. You will find Israeli influence in probably every election.
Your broader point is true but the characterization of Israel as an extension of America is not.
Israel is happy to be the sacrificial anode for more or less anyone willing to pay and not immediately counter to Israel's own geopolitical interests. This is a service they offer to the world, not just America.
America simply happens to be the largest customer among many.
I agree with everything you said except that the US is able to stop it. Think about it: Wouldn't Israel simply use these same tools in the US to install a puppet president they can easily manipulate?
Yeah, I’ve come to the same realization. Israel does the dirty work for the US and they take all the heat. If the U.S. really wanted Israel to stop, all they need to do is take out special privileges Israel gets and put down economic sanctions.
But could they? You are somehow assuming that all this "dirty work" as you call it is only done on behalf of others and not used to ensure continued ("unwavering") support for themselves.
All of this might be true if Israel didn't have undue influence over the American officials who are authorized to pick up that phone. But they do, and so the phone doesn't get picked up.
Also, if your parable about Ticketmaster were true. But it isn't. Most artists do indeed dislike them; the paltry kickback isn't worth the... bad blood... it sends their way. And it's weird that your read is that most artists secretly hold their fans in contempt. I don't know what kind of person just assumes that of others, except that they're that way themselves, maybe.
Joel Zamel, an Israeli intelligence veteran, led the Israeli intel company Psy-Group, which worked closely with Netanyahu and the Trump campaign circle, including Steve Bannon and Jared Kushner.
Psy-Group partnered with Cambridge Analytica (later Emerdata) to influence the 2016 US elections using social media data.
The Black Cube intel firm, staffed by former Mossad agents, was employed by Cambridge Analytica, which was involved in harvesting Facebook data.
Harvey Weinstein Hired ex-Mossad Agents to Track Women Accusing Him of Sexual Assault
Weinstein hired Israeli firm Black Cube to research his accusers and to scuttle reports of his sexual abuse
Black Cube operatives posed as activists, abuse victims and sources for journalists
"The SDS says the recordings — which feature a former minister, a top lawyer and other prominent figures — are proof of corruption at the highest levels of Slovenian society; while Golob’s supporters say the scandal is evidence that Janša is collaborating with foreign entities to retake power."
Sounds like they're all just different brands of scum.
First let me say that any corruption admitted to in those recordings should be prosecuted immediately, no question about it.
But really, the admissions were really nothing much, I'm actually surprised that's all they got. The former minister was forced to resign under allegations of corruption and was/is under investigation for it, no big surprise. And the talk about having access to Ljubljana's mayor (and that he is "for sale") - well that's been in the news for years, he's under several open investigations and many more were already closed (he always comes out victorious - either because he's innocent and it's all just hearsay, or more likely because he's extremely good at dodging liability and covering his tracks). The rest is just people who used to have some power trying to appear like they still have in order to impress a potential employer or get a business deal (that was the agents' cover).
Again, I hope the authorities are combing the tapes for evidence, but it really wasn't anything bombastic. That the Israelis were doing this on the other hand...
Yeah, what studiously seems to be absent is a denial of the contents of the recording. Kind of as if Nixon's Watergate burglars had found damning evidence of Democratic shenanigans- just a melee between dirty handed criminals all around.
> interfering in a foreign election should be understood to be grounds for war
Requires a rigorous definition of interference.
The allegations here—trying to catch politicians on tape being sleazy and then releasing them with sketchy editing-doesn’t seem to rise to the level of calling for a kinetic response.
Actually, no. The decentralization of power means that it takes a lot more effort to subvert each country individually, rather than propping up a few candidates for the entire region like they do in the US.
The EU is perfectly capable of collaborating even when it can't reach full consensus or when it wants to include peripheral states without them becoming full members. See for example the Schengen area, Eurozone, European Economic Area, and more recently (and specifically to circumvent member state vetos) when the enhanced cooperation procedures were invoked to lend money to Ukraine.
That’s true but that fragmentation is also what limits the propagation of fractures. You can see it like sandboxing.
A deal with foreign intelligence is a dead with the devil that comes with a lifetime of subservience. And subservience to foreign powers is a greater evil than yo usual internal corruption. At least the locally corrupt in a democracy have some interest in things going somewhat well in their country. The foreign actors only care about theirs.
What I do think is that nations should 1) interfere back, and 2) make their citizens more resilient to foreign propaganda. And I specifically don't mean building a firewall. In fact do the opposite: if a firewalled nation is leaking out propaganda, ensure firewall-breaking tools leak in.
> Doesn't matter, half of HN will still defend them.
And I would say half can't/won't speak about this. I try to stray away from these discussions sometimes because I feel worried that someone is going to take any comment out of context within these messages which is a bit of a strange way of self censorship actually and I feel like I might not be the only one. It's also worth mentioning that I have found this to be the case especially for Israel.
For example, I feel valid criticizing the current American Regime and Americans themselves would agree with me at a a much higher proportion/magnitude compared to Israel in which from my small sample bias of online acquaintances, I only had one Jewish (Living in America, not Israeli) person agree that Israel is doing some pretty horrendous things and although do take this with a grain of salt as something they told me but they said that Zionism and Antisemitism are effectively something comparable as within the Jewish religion, There is an idea of the world hating the Jews as being a pre-condition within Jewish religion for them to win within the end-times theology of the jewish faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog I think they were referencing this: Zechariah 14:2 states, "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it." The idea is that the Jewish people will have no earthly allies left.
This site definitely has a cohort of completely unhinged war mongers. The same names (and a bunch of random new accounts) never fail to show up to defend genocide or any other atrocities being committed.
You either find some of the most humble, down to earth, open source contributing people who value human life in it of itself within this forum who share as much knowledge/try to do good for the world, or you find people as you mention who completely disregard the previous ideals. There isn't much in-between.
I do think that there is some utilitarian aspect to it. Some people might genuinely believe that the losses to human livelihoods/human lives because of AI (yes even with these AI drones now with the deal @OpenAI), the end reality would still make everything worth it and within this distorted view of the future, they believe that everything happening in present is alright for the future and that itself can be used to propose some disgusting idea like eugenics which people might become okay with, as such.
And its very easy to switch somewhere within the past of a person being the former to the latter through the ladder steps of altruism to transhumanism to essentially the things we hear from AI hypebros. All the while, a benefit is that especially right now, selling AI sells for profit right now whereas people can question about the morality later/justify it through these distorted lenses that I mentioned.
Because if it's the latter, well, have you taken a look at their behavior recently? Their ethnicity/religion has nothing to do with why people condemn the state.
This exactly. Expressing a view that the Israeli government is causing massive harm to the world right now is not a view on an ethnic or religious group. There is a difference, but I have been noticing a strong attempt to try to link the two.
Yes it is. Arabs started a war in 1967 and lost some land. Germany started a war in 1939 and lost some land. Nobody on HN is demanding France and Poland return to their 1944 borders.
Likewise Germany lost more people than Britain. But HN isn't demanding that Britain stop because Britain is better at defending itself.
HN clearly doesn't like Israel, but they don't do it because of Israel's behavior because they don't hate other countries when the same thing happens. Just the 80% Jewish one.
Indeed. But as you might notice, WW2 is almost a century ago at this point. Were they to do it in the present day, they would have to face present day criticism.
However, they don't do that anymore, which makes your whole attempt at false equivalency rather hollow.
Are you seriously stating anti-Israel activists have stopped asking Israel to return to their borders before the war?
> The reasons people dislike Israel today is because of their actions over the past few years.
No. People have disliked Israel before it existed as a country: Arab violence aginst Jews was the basis of British Palestine being partitioned. Arabs have also been violent towards Christians, Druze and other groups that have not submitted to Islam in all the countries that Arabs have colonised.
The truth is the truth, whether or not it might align with a narrative or stereotype.
For example: NSA wiretapping was a truth that happened to align with pre-existing conspiracy theory narratives. It was easy to dismiss it as a crackpot theory, but that didn’t make the truth any less (or more) true.
If someone says “if you believe this might be true, you’re [a bad person]”, I would consider this person fundamentally against truth, and someone more interested in shaping narratives than upholding accuracy and integrity.
With so many conspiracy theories becoming truth and so much news proving to be lies over time, I now have more trust in something labeled as a conspiracy theory than in official news.
>...I now have more trust in something labeled as a conspiracy theory than in official news.
I think that is the goal. Destroy trust in formerly trustworthy sources so that the reality you see every day more closely aligns with one of the many conspiracy options.
Well, that's the conspiracy. Both in theory and practice. People conspire all the time, even those claiming they don't. If something is a conspiracy, doesn't mean it's not true. Or false.
Mueller correctly stated there was an orchestrated disinformation campaign by Russia. That's different than Russians under voting tables stuffing ballots in their pockets. some like to conflate the two so that they can call it all the 'russia hoax'
Conflict of interests. We were told these things by the very same people who have an interest to rigging an election :-)
at some point, this problem boils down to something like trusting trust and I think that the answer might be similar to how stage0 in compilers work in that smaller stages which can be easily audited combine/compile together to form larger stages. (Not sure if this allegory fits at the moment but I do feel like decentralization can definitely help in these cases which is my point but these same people who told that it wasn't possible aren't looking for/actively hindering any prospects of decentralization due to once again, conflict of interests)
Even if our politicians are so corrupt that every one has skeletons in their closet, I don't think releasing factual evidence of malfeasance is a type of election interference that should be condemned.
there are examples of files and tapes which veracity isn't in question in a much bigger and more important country than Slovenia regarding much more important people than the Slovenian prime minister and... it doesn't matter much, apparently
The candidate who stands to benefit from circumstances like this is usually quite corrupt as well. The mere appearance of a foreign espionage outfit helping one candidate should raise questions about their integrity.
Sausage is made by all parties. If you show how one party makes its sausage, and only that party, that is a smear campaign a foreign power must not assist in. Same as donating to one party, it is interfering with electuons
We should have some benchmark project that bluntly describes the issues with each democracy. Like, did elected officials dramatically change in appearance (length, ears, nose, teeth, chin, eyes), election agenda points that don't match execution, issues with method of voting, issues with vote counting etc
Israel really needs to stop interfering in other countries'
elections. That's not acceptable. We don't interfere when
their population votes for warcriminals either.
So many countries (Russia is reported to be helping Orban, for example) meddle in other countries' affairs, even when it doesn't affect them at all, directly or indirectly. These days a lot of damage can be done online (propaganda, riling people up, fake news etc) for very little money - how does one even begin to counter this? Especially if you are a small country/poor with limited resources
Sheldon Adelson's backing helped Netanyahu a lot, and not just by funding the free Israel Hayom newspaper (which generally assumes a right-wing, pro-Netanyahu editorial stance).
If you think for a second that the Israeli state allows this company to sell its services to anyone who is opposed to their interests, you really don't understand how defense companies and states work.
My point is a simple one: the company was hired by someone. Was it the opposition party? To say this is entirely Israel's doing implies the Slovenian party that benefits just happens to have gotten lucky. The reality is likely considerably murkier than that.
Any company that sells this type of services exists as an extension of its parent state. Any contract it offers, especially to a political entity in another state, will be scrutinized by state authorities and allowed by them or not. Sometimes, those contracts will be forced on the company based on state-level negotiations.
Noone is saying that the party that contracted this company (if indeed it was a Slovenian party and not the Israeli state itself) for this service doesn't carry blame. But both the company itself and the state of Israel carry just as much blame for offering, permitting, and carrying out such services.
By your logic, if someone were to found a legal private paid assassin company in France, and then the opposition party in Germany hired this company to assassinate the German chancellor, you'd say that it's unfair for Germany to blame France for this.
Curious: can you show the research steps you took to reach this conclusion? Really curious how we can all easily determine which companies are and aren't CIA fronts!
These gentlemen (and of course they're all men) constitute the 21st century axis of evil, responsible for most of the backsliding and worsening of rule of law around the world.
Milei though? His social views, eccentric behavior, and seeing other right wing leaders as kindred spirits is unfortunate.
However, practically and policy-wise, what has he done that's antidemocratic or imperialist? He's repeatedly democratically elected, as part of the people's mandate to fix their economy, and despite leftwing hang-wringing it'll never work, all data seems to point to their economy getting better.
Israel has created a whole industry around "politics" as a service. Between rampant spying in multiple countries using Predator etc and slimy campaings like this, you can buy governments for an increasingly affordable price.
I once made a list of various issues raised in various elections in various countries. The instances describe a whole spectrum of cheating. The only consistent factor is that no one believes there was cheating. The funniest was an order to change punchcards that made the holes not line up. People still found room to not see a problem with it.
I don't think that's the case. There are five people in my office including myself. Three of them are Jewish. None of them ever have anything positive to say about Israel. The three Jewish people in my office certainly don't hate Jews.
A third of Jews in NYC voted for an anti-Zionist Muslim mayor, which equates to roughly half the population of Tel Aviv according to demographic statistics. I advise you discuss "Jew hate" with them before you start attacking everyone else for racism.
I just saw video of Israeli soldiers handing over a 10 month old boy they had in their possession to the red crescent. The Israeli's had taken the little boy & his father, and tortured the boy in front of his father. They burned his body with cigarettes, and DROVE NAILS into his flesh.
They literally crucified a 10 month boy. All corroborated by medical professionals who examined him. They still have the father.
All over the media. Go look it up.
When that boy grows up, will his attitude be dismissed as "plain old Jew hate"?
Or righteous anger?
(and thats just 1 child, out of literally 100,000's of children, just in the last 30 odd months)
BS
The father is a Hamas operative that used his child as a human shield going to the yellow line.
The kid was hurt due to shrapnel, he was treated by Israeli doctors and was released to the red crescent. He was never tortured.
The media in this case is Aljazeera, and the "medical professionals" have every reason to lie.
Am I mistaken but in theory aren't Solvenia and Isreal technically allies ?
I'm not naive to believe intelligence agencies don't target each other in many ways, but general voting interference seems quite brazzen. I would love to see an example being made out of them here.
That said, bar sanctions, Isreali 'private' companies like this seem to have carte blanch on whatever they want to do. No sanctions, no fines, not even investigations will happen I fear.
> but general voting interference seems quite brazzen.
It's also not a new tactic. During his '68 presidential campaign against Lyndon Johnson, Nixon convinced the South Vietnamese to not engage in peace talks with the Communists to weaken Johnson's campaign. The war went on for 7 more years and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans and Vietnamese.
When it comes to IL most of the EU's countries leadership strategy comes down to getting willingly fucked and getting their population fucked for literally no benefit, just so that elites will not be temporarily called "anti-semitic".
It's nuts. Israel's idea of being an ally is fucking all their allies over, with useless war they can't win but that will erase and reverse within a few weeks all benefit countries like mine (Czechia) ever derived from a bilateral trade with them, just based on increased energy prices alone. (Compared to Slovenia, it's well deserved here, though. Czechs should suffer, to learn.)
This little stuff, like meddling in elections, is nothing, compared to big effects of IL state policy.
Israel doesn't have allies aside from US, they nurture a herd of masochist sycophant states.
Same Slovenia which Prime Minister of Slovakia Robert Fico was shot and critically injured in 2024 after, certainly not related, his government's opposition to military assistance to Ukraine and of hypocritical face of the EU inaction against Israel "treatment" of Palestinians.
[0]: https://www.lecanardenchaine.fr/politique/53391-la-campagne-...
Also, "there is no international law" is a strange argument to make in defense of a country that spends enormous resources lobbying international institutions and running influence ops in allied democracies. If none of it mattered, why bother?
Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Republicans and missiles being the best.
The thing about this is, the response to it will depend on who the politicians were. For example, if it was the "far right" politicians caught on tape, there wouldn't be the same furore about election interference. The recordings may of course be edited to be misleading.
Just to be fair, this is not unique to the current government. We've had several similar corruption scandals throughout several governments; it was almost always related to infrastructure projects.
A few days prior to this leak there was a separate one posted on Facebook (that I sadly can't find anymore; it has been covered by several media outlets here [1]), in which the former GS secretary reveals who gets what % and that they have to "set our own people to the right places, as (2023) floods cleanup is where the most money flows".
It is also not a secret that the mayor of Ljubljana, Janković, is able to bypass all laws to issue building permits in exchange for a 20% "donation" to city-ran sports clubs, which are ran by his friends. This was revealed in the case of an Austrian investor and his luxury flats at Celovška cesta, Ljubljana, a few months ago.
It's also plain obvious that the state media (RTV SLO) is trying hard to shift the conversation towards the origin of the leaks rather than the supposed corruption revealed in them. The practice had usually been to investigate the content first.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/c5OFcRRSF6k
(the parent comment has been edited to remove this claim shortly after I made my comment responding to it)
SOVA has only been able to confirm that an unlabeled Israeli charter landed at Brnik and that a taxi ride with two businessmen was made from the airport to the street in Ljubljana where SDS is headquartered.
This could have also been any two legit businessmen, who might have come with any other flight, for any other purpose. It’s not confirmed whether they entered the SDS building either.
It’s also anachronistic - the videos appear to have been filmed a while ago (given the statements made and the held positions of the people in them), while that flight has only happened a few weeks ago.
Švarc Pipan also didn’t refuse to lobby, she just brushed it off by saying “it’s not lobbying” after bring told it indeed was, right after bragging about lobbying.
This is demonstrably false; see Liber 777 cols. I, II, V, and VII. Saturn is assigned key scale 3 (col I) and is associated with the Name of God "Tetragrammaton Elohim," while "El" is traditionally reserved for the fourth sephira, representing Jupiter.
Six is a solar number, attributed to Christ and Ra (though also Osiris; but see the associated key scale and its myriad attributions). Jupiter, again, is ascribed number three, not six.
Black is indeed the Queen scale color associated to Saturn, though just as commonly attributed to Earth, as the final receptacle of all the other "colors" of creation (see key scales 3 and 10 in cols XV, XVI, XVIII).
Yes, I am an occultist.
https://ia802906.us.archive.org/22/items/Liber777Revised/Lib...
Only if you consider Crowley to be the alpha and omega.
Wikipedia cites Brill's New Pauly, which I found a copy of online, and that in turn just cites a German article from the early 20th century. I don't read German and have to stop there, but I do have to wonder how well the assertion is actually supported.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin
The influence of the Kabbalah and the occult sciences on Silicon Valley and the world at large is quite obvious if one is looking and doesn't brush these subjects off as woohoo / conspiratorial (which most people do).
Not observed until 1610
> Saturn has a hexagonal shaped storm on its north pole
Not observed until 1981/1987
> and the all-seeing eye on its south pole
Not immediately clear when first observed, I'll bet it wasn't until Cassini got there in 2004.
I appreciate the creativity in a new-to-me conspiracy theory, but be a little more careful about the historical record.
It's quite egotistical and foolish to assume we're more advanced and know more than our ancient ancestors, or that what is written in our history books is objective truth.
In fact, even scholars have suggested that Babylonians could and did observe at least one of Saturn's rings - https://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_que...
I have a hypothesis, which incorporates the fact that the Dogon were not reported to have such knowledge until the 1930s, well after the discovery of Sirius B.
> depicted in symbolism by different cultures dating back to Babylon
A bit of searching is coming up short, beyond a claim about shackles on the ankles of a Roman statue of Saturn (the god) symbolizing the rings; I find this less convincing than the idea that they symbolize shackles (the ones with which he was bound in Tartaros).
That's not a fact, because there are several sources / individuals that dispute this claim.
> A bit of searching is coming up short, beyond a claim about shackles on the ankles of a Roman statue of Saturn (the god) symbolizing the rings; I find this less convincing than the idea that they symbolize shackles (the ones with which he was bound in Tartaros).
Well you're pretty terrible at searching the internet then, considering I can type Sumerian saturn symbolism into any image search engine and find a plethora of examples.
It is unlikely that enough people would check their up/down vote history, vouch and flag history and even then some would assume they fat-fingered such things.
Such a UI could also save and upload username and password to another site. Some people use the same creds on multiple sites.
Seeing a sudden flood of new messages from low use accounts around elections or referendums is normal these days.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47522709
and
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47518281
and
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47523106
and
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47523169
Unless of course you mean "politics" as in everything you don't like is "politics".
There may well be a pro-Israel brigade going out of their way to move that along, but there is an equally rapid anti-Israel brigade. Nothing remains on the front page for long.
Notice how the tech media will decide particular companies as the only ones worth talking about in certain segments. It's not only money behind this, there are other motivations.
So, no. Israel is not "winning the up- and downvote war" of HN.
They are speaking in English. Only appendices 1-5 are available.
In the US it's blatant, from the insane amounts of money and weaponry sent to Israel (why are american taxpayers subsidizing Israel exactly? It's not like they are neither poor nor US owes them) to the recent events in the middle east.
But even in Europe. Here in Italy the coalition government has multiple high profile politicians that just happen to be shareholders or CEOs of security companies owned by Israelis. And just so it happens that the same security and communication companies get lots of work by the Italian government. And when journalists brought this up because they didn't report it to neither the government nor parliament, nothing happened anyway.
It's a scandal really, but if you write or say it, you're labeled as anti semitic, so criticizing and surfacing this terrible stuff is always controversial.
What I do think is a bit antisemitic is the suggestion that Israel is somehow unique here. Russia, China, and the U.S. are all doing this. Heck we just captured Maduro and killed leader of Iran. I just think a country like Russia is way more effective and subtle when it comes to election manipulation, especially in Eastern Europe.
The same reason USA is subsidizing half the middle eastern countries - its a strategic location near extremely important transit routes, near important resources, and right between major powers so the region doesn't squarely fall in any major power's sphere of influence and thus up to be influenced.
I dont know why all these conspiracy theories think the usa<->israel relationship is so strange, but dont blink at the relationship usa has with egypt, uae, saudi arabia, bharain, etc.
The U.S. did more than its fair share to glom onto those lines of exploitation and keep them alive at the expense of locals. e.g. Iran is what it is today because of U.S. oil interests. The CIA installed an authoritarian Shah when Iran's (at the time) democratic government started taking control of its own oil industry (American oil companies would have had to start paying taxes). Rule under the Shah was "unpleasant" for Iranians and revolution was the direct response. Hence, theocracy.
Israel is a special case in the Middle East. The zionist movement gained state sponsors and convinced European powers (and the U.S.) to pour money in instead of sucking it out. How they did that is a question that stretches back well into the 19th century. I'd argue that a lot of it was the result of people who had their hearts in the right places. Things just went sideways when it came to Israelis and Palestinians co-existing peacefully. At least some of the idealists of the early zionist movement honestly believed the influx of Jewish people would be a benefit to Arabs already living in Palestine.
Teodore Hertzl (Zionism’s founder) was explicit about the need to ethically cleanse the Palestinians from their land.
(I ask not because it's inconceivable, but because Herzl died almost half a century before Israel declared its independence. Ze'ev Jabotinsky is more consistently identified with revisionist Zionism/territorial maximalism.)
https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quot...
Your comment completely ignores the long history Israel has of rigging the US elections by funding their pet congressmen.
Israel is, to use a Pacific-theatre term, our unsinkable aircraft carrier. A better Pakistan.
> long history Israel has of rigging the US elections by funding their pet congressmen
Americans were, until recently, pro Israel. The funding worked because amplifying anti-Israeli sentiments among electeds lost them votes. Now that that balance of perceptions has shifted, the effect has as well. And note that pro-Israel != Israel; lots of America pro-Israeli influence is entirely homegrown.
What I do think is true is that Jews have more fear of others based on past treatment and even a lot of current rhetoric and may justify actions as necessary for safety.
We do also happen to be a very small group of people. For instance, Palestinians have 1 billion Muslims supporting them.
That said, I happen to think that these unscrupulous policies will actually cause more harm than good.
I don't like Israel's policies towards Palestine but know many Jewish people who feel the same as me. Heck, I know Israelis who thinks the same as me.
Unfortunately, this POV doesn't seem to be widely held by many woth influence.
And if what you say is true, why is Netanyahu still in power?
That said I don't think your point undermines my suggestion that the U.S. should get out of the business of funding Israel and joining it in any wars over there.
Since Janez Jansa will be prime minister he will be charged for corruption by end of his term and this could be the third time for him to go to prison (the first instance happened under the socialist regime, so maybe that does not count).
Anyway, I do not think Israelis needed to work hard here to find some dirt.
What are they even expecting their so called protests to achieve anyway. These people have absolutely no goals or plans to have any. Guess it's a way for them to have an roadside party instead of whinging about politics online lol.
2. There are many more protest besides NoKings
3. Direct Action is better than no action. We only vote once every 1/2/4 years. This helps get people moving, to take their first steps. Case in point, this year I am printing whistles and information
[1] https://www.blackcube.com/
[2] https://www.palantir.com/developers/
I guess what is missing from the article is was the videos misleading or did they really get offered the bribe? Because if its the latter, its kind of hard to feel sympathy for a corrupt official getting caught even if the mechanism was problematic.
In this context, a bribe is irrelevant compared to the act of election interference by a foreign actor.
If you are corrupt, and that corruption helps the opposition, you are accused of election manipulation. If you expose corruption, and that exposure helps the opposition, you are accused of election manipulation.
Meanwhile, the US is pouring billions of dollars into their elections, and if questioned, the questioning is considered an authoritarian encroachment on human rights. The US can make their officials into unpersons with sanctions for doing their jobs with integrity, and they'll just go along with it, tsk-tsking at the official in question.
Too bad for Golob, though - since it's Israel doing it for Israeli reasons, the "left-liberals" won't be able to get any of their usual support to attack them, because it's Israelis all the way down now. Ukraine is old news and competing with Israel for weapons, so there's no need for NATO-lackey Golob anymore.
People hate Ticketmaster. For good reason. TM throws on all these fees, clearly engages in third-party selling, makings buying difficult and jacks up prices. All of this is known. But what's less known is that artists, especially big artists, like Ticketmaster. Why? Because TM is a sacrificial anode. It takes all the hate but adding junk fees that in part go to the artist. The artist can say they're selling seats from as low as $20 in press releases while the least they will get for a seat is $30 because of all the fees.
Being hated is a service you can sell because it takes away attention from what you're doing. You get to blame this third-party but you're still absolutely complicit in everything they're doing. You see where this is going?
Israel is America's Ticketmaster. Anything bad that Israel or an Israeli firm does, the US could end today with a phone call by simply saying "we're cutting off aid if you don't stop doing". The price of this is to be the sacrificial anode for what is actually American foreign policy. There are well-funded and organized efforts to whitewash Israel's reputation and those were successful up until the last few years.
Israel is a huge supplier of spyware eg Pegasus [1]. Despotic regimes use this to spy on journalists and opposition figures and has likely been used to locate and kill them. You think we couldn't stop that? Of course we can. But we like that because, again, Israel takes the heat.
So Israel interfering in Slovenia's elections is the least surprising thing I've heard. I'd be surprised if it wasn't true. You will find Israeli influence in probably every election.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)
Israel is happy to be the sacrificial anode for more or less anyone willing to pay and not immediately counter to Israel's own geopolitical interests. This is a service they offer to the world, not just America.
America simply happens to be the largest customer among many.
It's a service that they offer first and foremost to themselves and against anyone else, including America.
Can we even prove it hasn't already happened?
But could they? You are somehow assuming that all this "dirty work" as you call it is only done on behalf of others and not used to ensure continued ("unwavering") support for themselves.
Also, if your parable about Ticketmaster were true. But it isn't. Most artists do indeed dislike them; the paltry kickback isn't worth the... bad blood... it sends their way. And it's weird that your read is that most artists secretly hold their fans in contempt. I don't know what kind of person just assumes that of others, except that they're that way themselves, maybe.
Psy-Group partnered with Cambridge Analytica (later Emerdata) to influence the 2016 US elections using social media data.
The Black Cube intel firm, staffed by former Mossad agents, was employed by Cambridge Analytica, which was involved in harvesting Facebook data.
Harvey Weinstein Hired ex-Mossad Agents to Track Women Accusing Him of Sexual Assault
Weinstein hired Israeli firm Black Cube to research his accusers and to scuttle reports of his sexual abuse
Black Cube operatives posed as activists, abuse victims and sources for journalists
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2017-11-07/ty-article/report...
Sounds like they're all just different brands of scum.
But really, the admissions were really nothing much, I'm actually surprised that's all they got. The former minister was forced to resign under allegations of corruption and was/is under investigation for it, no big surprise. And the talk about having access to Ljubljana's mayor (and that he is "for sale") - well that's been in the news for years, he's under several open investigations and many more were already closed (he always comes out victorious - either because he's innocent and it's all just hearsay, or more likely because he's extremely good at dodging liability and covering his tracks). The rest is just people who used to have some power trying to appear like they still have in order to impress a potential employer or get a business deal (that was the agents' cover).
Again, I hope the authorities are combing the tapes for evidence, but it really wasn't anything bombastic. That the Israelis were doing this on the other hand...
Requires a rigorous definition of interference.
The allegations here—trying to catch politicians on tape being sleazy and then releasing them with sketchy editing-doesn’t seem to rise to the level of calling for a kinetic response.
Controlling Hungary is enough to veto some support for Ukraine.
A deal with foreign intelligence is a dead with the devil that comes with a lifetime of subservience. And subservience to foreign powers is a greater evil than yo usual internal corruption. At least the locally corrupt in a democracy have some interest in things going somewhat well in their country. The foreign actors only care about theirs.
What I do think is that nations should 1) interfere back, and 2) make their citizens more resilient to foreign propaganda. And I specifically don't mean building a firewall. In fact do the opposite: if a firewalled nation is leaking out propaganda, ensure firewall-breaking tools leak in.
And I would say half can't/won't speak about this. I try to stray away from these discussions sometimes because I feel worried that someone is going to take any comment out of context within these messages which is a bit of a strange way of self censorship actually and I feel like I might not be the only one. It's also worth mentioning that I have found this to be the case especially for Israel.
For example, I feel valid criticizing the current American Regime and Americans themselves would agree with me at a a much higher proportion/magnitude compared to Israel in which from my small sample bias of online acquaintances, I only had one Jewish (Living in America, not Israeli) person agree that Israel is doing some pretty horrendous things and although do take this with a grain of salt as something they told me but they said that Zionism and Antisemitism are effectively something comparable as within the Jewish religion, There is an idea of the world hating the Jews as being a pre-condition within Jewish religion for them to win within the end-times theology of the jewish faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog I think they were referencing this: Zechariah 14:2 states, "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it." The idea is that the Jewish people will have no earthly allies left.
And god forbid how easily you're labeled as anti semitic for bringing up facts about Israeli spying and lobbying in the west.
Hell, in Italy, neo nazi hooligans go protest for Israel with hundreds of police defending them.
Whereas genuine pro Palestinian protests (99 times out of 100 peaceful) met nothing but batons and condemnation.
Even the tv narratives about these events is disgusting.
It's clear the Israelis know how to do their job.
And in general a huge lack of empathy and obsession with power and money.
I guess it's normal given the coupling to the #1 VC incubator of the #1 country that obsesses over power and money.
I do think that there is some utilitarian aspect to it. Some people might genuinely believe that the losses to human livelihoods/human lives because of AI (yes even with these AI drones now with the deal @OpenAI), the end reality would still make everything worth it and within this distorted view of the future, they believe that everything happening in present is alright for the future and that itself can be used to propose some disgusting idea like eugenics which people might become okay with, as such.
And its very easy to switch somewhere within the past of a person being the former to the latter through the ladder steps of altruism to transhumanism to essentially the things we hear from AI hypebros. All the while, a benefit is that especially right now, selling AI sells for profit right now whereas people can question about the morality later/justify it through these distorted lenses that I mentioned.
Worth a watch, Can't recommend this video enough,
AI is a Eugenics Project : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SSxfa3da58
Because if it's the latter, well, have you taken a look at their behavior recently? Their ethnicity/religion has nothing to do with why people condemn the state.
Likewise Germany lost more people than Britain. But HN isn't demanding that Britain stop because Britain is better at defending itself.
HN clearly doesn't like Israel, but they don't do it because of Israel's behavior because they don't hate other countries when the same thing happens. Just the 80% Jewish one.
However, they don't do that anymore, which makes your whole attempt at false equivalency rather hollow.
1944 and 1967 aren't that far apart. You just think the war won by the Jews needs to be reversed and the war won by the Allies does not.
> More false equivalency.
You might be projecting there.
The reasons people dislike Israel today is because of their actions over the past few years.
But you know that, you just seek to distort and twist. It is not a conversation for you, it is an opportunity for hateful propaganda.
Are you seriously stating anti-Israel activists have stopped asking Israel to return to their borders before the war?
> The reasons people dislike Israel today is because of their actions over the past few years.
No. People have disliked Israel before it existed as a country: Arab violence aginst Jews was the basis of British Palestine being partitioned. Arabs have also been violent towards Christians, Druze and other groups that have not submitted to Islam in all the countries that Arabs have colonised.
For example: NSA wiretapping was a truth that happened to align with pre-existing conspiracy theory narratives. It was easy to dismiss it as a crackpot theory, but that didn’t make the truth any less (or more) true.
If someone says “if you believe this might be true, you’re [a bad person]”, I would consider this person fundamentally against truth, and someone more interested in shaping narratives than upholding accuracy and integrity.
I think that is the goal. Destroy trust in formerly trustworthy sources so that the reality you see every day more closely aligns with one of the many conspiracy options.
Sorry, when were questions about Slovenia’s voting system considered crazy?
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/its-...
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/17/tammy-bald...
at some point, this problem boils down to something like trusting trust and I think that the answer might be similar to how stage0 in compilers work in that smaller stages which can be easily audited combine/compile together to form larger stages. (Not sure if this allegory fits at the moment but I do feel like decentralization can definitely help in these cases which is my point but these same people who told that it wasn't possible aren't looking for/actively hindering any prospects of decentralization due to once again, conflict of interests)
Even if our politicians are so corrupt that every one has skeletons in their closet, I don't think releasing factual evidence of malfeasance is a type of election interference that should be condemned.
It doesnt matter how men, bodies / hours / time / millions and billions you spend building a defensive
They will infiltrate with less than 500k
And come out on top
100% of the time
This is a fundamental human problem that needs fixing across the entire planet
It does not matter what country or secret groups are involved or how much life or death is truly at stake
There is a 100000% chance some dumbass is willing to fuck if all up for a small bribe
Sheldon Adelson's backing helped Netanyahu a lot, and not just by funding the free Israel Hayom newspaper (which generally assumes a right-wing, pro-Netanyahu editorial stance).
Coincidences are funny sometimes :-)
My point is a simple one: the company was hired by someone. Was it the opposition party? To say this is entirely Israel's doing implies the Slovenian party that benefits just happens to have gotten lucky. The reality is likely considerably murkier than that.
Noone is saying that the party that contracted this company (if indeed it was a Slovenian party and not the Israeli state itself) for this service doesn't carry blame. But both the company itself and the state of Israel carry just as much blame for offering, permitting, and carrying out such services.
By your logic, if someone were to found a legal private paid assassin company in France, and then the opposition party in Germany hired this company to assassinate the German chancellor, you'd say that it's unfair for Germany to blame France for this.
Or more simply that what the Israeli company did, is not illegal in Israel.
Selective prosecution is a recurring issue under Israeli jurisprudence.
Curious: can you show the research steps you took to reach this conclusion? Really curious how we can all easily determine which companies are and aren't CIA fronts!
(Although obviously there are of course Jewish thinkers who believe in ethnic superiority, but many also reject it.)
Other members, in no particular order:
Orban, Trump, Putin, Babis, Thiel, Bolsonaro, Ellison, Milei, Nawrocki.
These gentlemen (and of course they're all men) constitute the 21st century axis of evil, responsible for most of the backsliding and worsening of rule of law around the world.
However, practically and policy-wise, what has he done that's antidemocratic or imperialist? He's repeatedly democratically elected, as part of the people's mandate to fix their economy, and despite leftwing hang-wringing it'll never work, all data seems to point to their economy getting better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSM-JOzL_uU
The UN believes the IDF uses rape as a matter of policy and has published a report with quite a bit of evidence.
Hearing Israel is meddling with elections is like, yeah, if you are doing that other stuff I'm not shocked when you also do this.
NY is just a repeat of Karl Lueger in Vienna.
Hahaha. They're trying to influence European elections. You don't need to have any opinion about Jews to be upset about that.
They literally crucified a 10 month boy. All corroborated by medical professionals who examined him. They still have the father.
All over the media. Go look it up.
When that boy grows up, will his attitude be dismissed as "plain old Jew hate"?
Or righteous anger?
(and thats just 1 child, out of literally 100,000's of children, just in the last 30 odd months)
I'm not naive to believe intelligence agencies don't target each other in many ways, but general voting interference seems quite brazzen. I would love to see an example being made out of them here.
That said, bar sanctions, Isreali 'private' companies like this seem to have carte blanch on whatever they want to do. No sanctions, no fines, not even investigations will happen I fear.
If you mean broadly, western-minded, yes but slovenia expressed some uncomfortable positions for israel lately
hasn't everyone though ? Does that mean Isreal is in the clear to interfere ?
> Israel is not in eu or nato. No of course not, but there is an alignment technically, I guess the western minded.
Ireland is not a NATO member but there would be some backlash from hearing Isreal was interfearing in elections.
It's also not a new tactic. During his '68 presidential campaign against Lyndon Johnson, Nixon convinced the South Vietnamese to not engage in peace talks with the Communists to weaken Johnson's campaign. The war went on for 7 more years and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans and Vietnamese.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/yes-nixon-sc...
It's nuts. Israel's idea of being an ally is fucking all their allies over, with useless war they can't win but that will erase and reverse within a few weeks all benefit countries like mine (Czechia) ever derived from a bilateral trade with them, just based on increased energy prices alone. (Compared to Slovenia, it's well deserved here, though. Czechs should suffer, to learn.)
This little stuff, like meddling in elections, is nothing, compared to big effects of IL state policy.
Israel doesn't have allies aside from US, they nurture a herd of masochist sycophant states.