6 comments

  • pjdesno 10 hours ago
    If you run "make" in the papers/IBIC2013 directory you'll get this paper: https://cds.cern.ch/record/1743073/files/thbl2.pdf

    It's quite interesting - this isn't ethernet as we know it. Instead of each NIC using its own free-running clock, all the physical layers are sync'ed to each other at layer 1. (note that gigabit ethernet, which is what it uses, sends data at all times - when idle it sends the idle symbol)

  • skulk 12 hours ago
    Haven't looked into this in depth but sub-nanosecond sync for systems up to 10km apart is interesting since 10km is about 33 light microseconds. There is some trickery going on.
    • nuccy 7 hours ago
      In our lab tests phase lock jitter between WR client and master is about 10ps (picoseconds) over 50km fiber (with temperature change of the fiber, so WR actively compensates elongations), so relative clock of one system can be transmitted with about that accuracy to another.

      P.S. There is WR workshop this week with some talks being publicly available on CERN's indico website.

      • xxs 5 hours ago
        Even though you're commenting on While Rabbit post, it took some time to understand "WR" is white rabbit, esp. since describing the pico seconds in brackets.
    • elromulous 11 hours ago
      It's totally possible to achieve synchronization better than light transmission time. For the purposes of synchronization, the speed of light delay, and any other delay are indistinguishable, and need not be distinguished.
    • ooterness 11 hours ago
      Two-way time transfer measures the round-trip propagation time. As a result, it's not directly relevant to the accuracy.
      • catoc 9 hours ago
        So then you need to know distance / roundtrip-length within centimeter precision as well (below 29.98 cm for sub-nanosecond precision… to be precise).

        Since cm precision is often not possible, is roundtrip-length an estimated average from prior roundtrips?

        • fsh 8 hours ago
          The roundtrip time is measured and compensated. Even NTP does this. Knowing the distance is not necessary for time synchronization.
        • RossBencina 5 hours ago
          gPTP estimates the link delay and the peer clock ratio, see for example this random link I just found for you: https://blog.meinbergglobal.com/2024/03/27/what-is-gptp/
        • Gravityloss 5 hours ago
          Hmm one would expect heat expansion to change the length of fiber over tens of kilometers. Does it also affect light speed in the fiber? I think consumer fiber is not buried very deep on average, but maybe for these use cases you use something hefty anyway.
        • netjiro 8 hours ago
          delay is easy

          jitter kills

        • numpad0 4 hours ago
          ... why would cm precision be often not possible?
    • colechristensen 11 hours ago
      The gravity well time dilation is about 3.5 nanoseconds per meter per year near the surface of the earth. (time changes rate with altitude in a gravity well)

      Sub-nanosecond synchronization is getting into the relativity is measurable realm.

      • mike_hock 11 hours ago
        That means you get a free clock cycle every 2-3 hours on top of a mountain compared to sea level!
        • brookst 10 hours ago
          Datacenters in spaaaace!
          • Gravityloss 5 hours ago
            But they travel at 8 km/s so actually that cancels benefits? EDIT: checked, not enough to cancel them completely.
            • pwndByDeath 19 minutes ago
              I wonder I'd that's the math for the ludicrous space data center ideas "floating" around...
    • UltraSane 12 hours ago
      Yes, it uses phased locked loops and measures phase difference between the master clock and the local clock.
    • SiempreViernes 7 hours ago
      yes, it needs custom built hardware to work.
  • zamadatix 9 hours ago
    Some may find https://gitlab.com/ohwr/project/white-rabbit/-/wikis/home an easier starting point. Particularly the "Synchronization" page.

    In short, it's about giving PTP and SyncE some extra smarts.

  • roughly 11 hours ago
    Haven't dug in on the technicals, but this is coming out of CERN, it looks like - and in that light, the links to "We're hiring" on that page almost feel like a flex...
  • kikimora 6 hours ago
    What is significance of this?
    • perfmode 2 hours ago
      Distributed systems spend most of their effort on one problem: agreeing on the order of events across machines. Without synchronized physical clocks you have two options. Logical clocks (Lamport, vector) give you causal order but not wall-clock truth, so you can’t answer “did A really happen before B” for events that don’t have a happens-before relationship. Or you run consensus, which gives total order but costs round trips. At geographic scale that’s tens of milliseconds per decision, and the floor is set by the speed of light.

      Tight clock sync collapses this. If clock uncertainty ε is small and bounded, you can timestamp a write, wait ε, and trust the global order without talking to anyone. Spanner’s external consistency works because TrueTime’s ε was a few milliseconds, so commit-wait was tolerable. The latency cost of planet-scale serializability stops depending on how far apart your replicas are and starts depending on how good your clocks are.

      That’s the real significance. Time sync converts a coordination problem (bounded by physics) into a local computation (bounded by clock quality). Spanner proved this is possible but required GPS receivers and atomic clocks in every datacenter, which kept the capability inside Google for years. White Rabbit-class sync pushes ε from milliseconds toward sub-nanoseconds over commodity Ethernet hardware, and it’s now in IEEE 1588 as a standard PTP profile. If sub-nanosecond sync becomes baseline network infrastructure, the long-held assumption that strong consistency has to be slow at geographic scale stops holding, and a meaningful chunk of what databases currently work around (HLCs, weak isolation defaults, application-level reconciliation) becomes unnecessary.

    • Galanwe 2 hours ago
      Used quite a bit by stock exchanges to ensure consumers and publishers have a reasonably aligned time.
    • dkdcdev 5 hours ago
      it is useful e.g. to align the phase of signals being sent from different locations
  • LowLevelKernel 10 hours ago
    Not on GitHub?
    • boguscoder 10 hours ago
      Its on gitlab but even there I failed to find sources, documentation/presentations are there though
      • Wololooo 7 hours ago
        If I remember everything is open hardware, CERN should have those repo accessible, last time I used it it was still very much in dev, especially their PCIe cards with custom kernel. This being said, I haven't touched it since ~6 years ago...
      • goofymiron 7 hours ago
        https://www.white-rabbit.tech/wr-technology/

        Note that this is also for a large part a hardware-based technology