Reverse Jevons Paradox

(mht.wtf)

27 points | by martinhath 3 days ago

15 comments

  • chvid 4 minutes ago
    Will it happen to memory? I am looking at you guys, electron apps.
    • chvid 2 minutes ago
      If you had the right OS support for JS apps - all those apps that package a full chrome browser all of a sudden would have close to zero memory footprint.
  • z3t4 37 minutes ago
    In micro economics theory they call this price elasticity where you try lowering the price to see how much more customers buy and you plot that to a graph calculator to get a curve and the bend on the curve is the price elasticity. Then you can calculate the optimal price to maximize sales.
    • amelius 12 minutes ago
      But you want to maximize profit, not sales.
  • nbernard 2 hours ago
    > Jevons paradox happens when the cost of a resource goes down, but the total spend on that resource goes up.

    I would argue that is not Jevons paradox but standard supply and demand (and this "reverse Jevons paradox" too). Jevons paradox occurs when a more efficient use of a resource leads to an increase in its use (instead of a decrease as a first order analysis would suggest).

    • martinhath 1 hour ago
      > Jevons paradox occurs when a more efficient use of a resource leads to an increase in its use

      I think these are the same, because efficiency is value over cost. In the original formulation of the paradox, a more efficient steam engine lead to a rise in coal consumption. You can look at this as a "money buys coal, coal drives locomotion" system, where the latter part was improved. Modulo practical issues with coal (transport, storage, etc), dropping the price of coal would (probably?) lead to the same effect, since the end result is that locomotion per money is increased. For an outside observer, it doesn't matter if you get more coal per money or more locomotion per coal.

      > standard supply and demand

      Standard supply and demand doesn't say anything about increase of spend. If food prices drop, I'm not going to buy more food. I might buy better food for the same budget, but there's no reason why my total food spend should increase.

    • friendzis 2 hours ago
      > I would argue that is not Jevons paradox but standard supply and demand (and this "reverse Jevons paradox" too).

      Kinda yes. How do you derive total spend from supply-demand curves? Multiply price and quantity at an intersection point. Likewise, you can predict total spend by multiplying p and q on the demand curve.

      The difference in total spend is difference between these areas. For the total spend to increase with a drop in price, the the demand must rise faster.

      Jevon's paradox implies that the price equilibrium is at the highly elastic portion of the demand curve.

      > Jevons paradox occurs when a more efficient use of a resource leads to an increase in its use

      While that's mostly true in practical reality in established economies, that does not strictly have to be the case. On the consumer side, especially in manufacturing, there's very little difference between unit price of a good falling and input unit per output units dropping as both lead to decreased COGS. In both cases, market realities might unlock alternative approaches (the classic being robot replacing Robert), leading to increased demand.

    • fxwin 2 hours ago
      I think it's still valid to see this as an example of the Jevons paradox: Your resource is money, and reduced per-unit cost means you are using your money (resource) more efficiently. If the total spend now goes up instead of stagnating or decreasing, you've got Jevons
    • jpfromlondon 1 hour ago
      you are absolutely correct, the author is putting the cart before the horse.
  • pu_pe 1 hour ago
    Jevons Paradox is called a paradox because it is non-intuitive. It is very intuitive to conclude that when costs go up, people will use less of that thing.
  • janpeuker 42 minutes ago
    > The cost of making small changes to the codebase is so high that it becomes net-negative for a single developer to make the change

    That's called Software Engineering at Google

  • xg15 3 hours ago
    > you might effectively kill a whole class of changes, like "small refactor" PRs.

    Or the changes might be "smuggled through" in an unrelated changeset that has to go through the red tape anyway.

  • cubefox 2 hours ago
    > If you make it hard to change code by requiring multiple levels of reviews, a web of Jira tickets, a horde of people needing to sign off, and other red tape, you might effectively kill a whole class of changes

    I remember this theater on things which were suspected to be too expensive with insiffiufficient ROI to implement, except that all the time wasted by multiple people arguing in Jira tickets, sitting in meetings, and writing specifications was likely far more expensive than just building and testing the thing.

    For some reason, there seems to be a strong and automatic tendency for older and larger organizations to drift toward petrification through bureaucratization.

  • geraneum 2 hours ago
    The author has discovered the red tape.
  • greenfish6 3 hours ago
    Now that I think about it, it's very easy to point to reverse jevon's paradoxes. Regulations around building housing, large org bloat + processes, when the stupid form fill that i need to fill out gets too long on some website...
    • jaynetics 2 hours ago
      Indeed. My first thought was that this is a roundabout name for ordinary "rulebook slowdown", but of course there are other ways to increase the cost of useful behavior, not just rules.

      It leads to an interesting way to think about company and civic health as well. Instead of focussing purely on incentives, one might assume that many are inclined to do good stuff anyway, and then ask: are we lowering the cost of all desired behavior as much as possible? And are we doing it for as many people as possible?

  • smitty1e 1 hour ago
    > if the cost of a resource goes up, the total spend on that resource can go down.

    Not unlike hiking taxes on the rich, seeing them vote with their feet, and revenue subsequently catering.

    But as long as we reward politicians for delivering blame more than results, this political folly will continue.

    Until Strein's Law[1] kicks the teeth in.

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Stein#Stein's_Law

    • neilwilson 16 minutes ago
      Except that revenue doesn’t crater in a floating exchange rate system. Revenue from them craters but the money moves elsewhere and revenue improves there - including an increase in total transactions. Total revenue will always be Total spend less what people decide to financially save rather than spend. Because tax are percentages and the process is a geometric series.
  • malkia 2 hours ago
    Or also called bureaucracy
  • _djo_ 29 minutes ago
    [flagged]
  • subhajeet2107 3 hours ago
    [dead]