Worlds More Habitable Than Earth? They're Out There

(nytimes.com)

32 points | by cainxinth 4 hours ago

8 comments

  • 4fterd4rk 14 minutes ago
    Well that makes sense as this one is becoming less habitable by the day
  • PorciiVorbesc 1 hour ago
    We just need to find where The Ancients buried the Stargate on Earth. Let's gooo!
  • joe_the_user 30 minutes ago
  • fred_is_fred 1 hour ago
    Is there any plausible way for a human to ever reach one given what we know about physics at the present?
    • theptip 3 minutes ago
      Yes, easy assuming multi-generational arcologies.

      There are plenty of designs that get you to 0.1c or above if you are Kardashev 2, things like light sails powered from the Dyson sphere.

      Nothing plausible for anyone living today AFAIK.

    • unrented7977 48 minutes ago
      The answer is actually yes if you're willing to wait.

      Interstellar travel is not impossible, no matter what anyone tells you. We know how, it's just wildly impractical. We've barely even left our own planet, and we've managed to throw a few chunks of metal out of our solar system so far. We lack the industrial capacity to build an interstellar ship, we do not lack the physics.

      • nonethewiser 7 minutes ago
        >Interstellar travel is not impossible, no matter what anyone tells you. We know how, it's just wildly impractical.

        This was provocative and intriguing so I looked into it and this is my understanding of some of the options (theoretically).

        First, "interstellar" means between stars and the closes star is 4.2465 light years away (Proxima Centauri in Alpha Centauri star system) so I used that. c=speed of light

           - Chemical (Voyager), ~0.006% c: ~75,000 years
           - Nuclear pulse (Orion), ~3-10% c: ~40-130 years
           - Fusion (Daedalus), ~12% c, flyby: ~35 years
           - Laser sail (Starshot), ~20% c, flyby: ~21 years (gram-scale probes only)
           - Antimatter, ~20-30% c stopping: ~14-21 years; ~50% c flyby: ~8-9 years
        
        Nuclear pulse surprised me in particular. My understanding is you basically just detonate a bunch of nukes to propel yourself. There are legal hurdles not to mention fallout, but it sounds like the physics of simply getting there in 40+ years (not stopping, mind you) is possible with todays physics. That's pretty amazing and I had no idea.
      • stouset 32 minutes ago
        There’s a huge asterisk here.

        IIRC, it is possible to get anywhere in the observable universe in one human lifetime assuming 1g of constant acceleration.

        This does not permit you to slow down and halt at your target, which greatly increases travel times.

        It is also effectively a one-way ticket for anything other than objects in our immediate stellar neighborhood. If you turned around and returned to Earth after getting to an object 1,000ly away—still well within our own arm of the galaxy—at least 2,000 years will have passed on Earth. It’s probable that no civilization you know of would still exist, nor would anyone be able to understand your language.

        This isn’t even beginning to address the problem of running into stray atoms at 99.99…% of the speed of light. Or god forbid a handful of stray molecules. We also haven’t discussed the real elephant in the room which is the sheer amount of energy required to accelerate a human and human life support systems at 1g for several decades.

        • Scarblac 26 minutes ago
          Also, how much fuel do you need to bring along to accelerate a human and life support system and the whole craft including fuel, for a lifetime? Is it larger than a planet?
          • m4rtink 6 minutes ago
            Actually, even something as primitive as a NSWR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_salt-water_rocket) can reach a good percentage of the speed of light after basically processing a comet for fuel. From the Wikipedia article:

            "The design and calculations discussed above are using 20%-enriched uranium salts. However, it would be plausible to use another design which could achieve much higher exhaust velocities (4,725 km/s) and use a 30,000-tonne ice comet along with 7,500 tonnes of highly enriched uranium salts to propel a 300-tonne spacecraft up to 7.62% of the speed of light and potentially arrive at Alpha Centauri after a 60-year journey."

            Sure, not 99% the speed of light or continuous 1 g acceleration but IMHO good enough for an oversized nuclear squirt gun.

          • loudmax 10 minutes ago
            Since we're already in the realm of far out engineering, you could get the energy from a laser beam from a source orbiting the sun. Your spaceship would have some kind of array to capture the energy beam.

            This gives you energy, but I'm not sure how to turn that into velocity. Presumably you'd want some kind of ion beam emitter on board to propel your craft forward. Halfway through the journey, you'd turn the ion beam around to decelerate as you approach your destination.

            In the Arthur C Clarke novel Songs of Distant Earth, spacecraft pushed huge blocks of ice ahead of them to absorb stray interstellar dust.

          • __MatrixMan__ 5 minutes ago
            Less if you just send some eggs and sperm and spin up a human on arrival.
          • stouset 23 minutes ago
            Yeah, I added that I think around the time you replied :)
      • stymaar 31 minutes ago
        We don't lack the industrial capacity either, we mostly lack a good reason to spend these resources in that direction.

        And IMHO that's the main explanation for the Fermi paradox: we don't see aliens everywhere because they don't have a good reason to colonize other planets than their own either.

        • 7373737373 11 minutes ago
          Would that not also imply that improvements in ease of access to space, increase of energy production and -price reduction all level off before it becomes easy and affordable enough that mere curiosity would suffice to make it possible, for ALL civilizations?
        • mytailorisrich 5 minutes ago
          We do lack the technological capacity.

          Travelling to another star would require a fully self-contained spaceship with energy, life support, food, medical facilities, even production facilities able to function for centuries or millenia. We simply don't know how to do that.

    • Jtarii 18 minutes ago
      We are at least 1000 years away from being anywhere close to this.
    • imzadi 1 hour ago
      Generation ships with plasma sails, probably.
      • bilbo0s 58 minutes ago
        And what happens when they encounter a GRB?

        Interstellar travel is not a propulsion problem. It's a space travel problem. The medium itself, is the vast majority of the problem.

        • unrented7977 51 minutes ago
          Space is, and I must emphasize this in the strongest possible terms, really FUCKING BIG and dangerous GRBs tend to be tightly focused given the inverse square law.

          It's highly unlikely that a ship gets hit by a GRB.

          On the other hand, general radiation gets worse the faster you go, so you need shielding either way. All you have to do is line the walls of your ship with a shit ton of water, which can be mined in space.

          • zdragnar 34 minutes ago
            I'm reminded of the joke that the most dangerous thing in the ocean is all the water.

            We don't have fuel sources that can run long enough for the trip, and deep space won't have enough solar radiation. We would need reliable mining spots along the way to replace metals made brittle by exposure or punctured by micro asteroids.

            Even travelling at 1% the speed of light, stray hydrogen atoms become a problem. Not counting acceleration or deceleration time, that would be over 400 years just to get to the nearest star, let alone one with a habitable planet.

          • cdelsolar 41 minutes ago
            Can you really mine water in interstellar space, how? there’s not that many asteroids just floating out there, I think.
            • GolfPopper 25 minutes ago
              Maybe the previous poster was referring to the Kuiper Belt and/or the Oort Cloud? There's certainly plenty of water ice out there, with no particularly deep gravity wells to worry about.

              Collecting it while usefully en route to another star system seems like it would be tricky from a delta-v perspective, but maybe the solution is to:

              1) build a small worldship from an appropriate asteroid 2) fill your internal ocean in the outer solar system over the course of a generation or three 3) dive back down the gravity well for a gravitational assist from the Sun as you head to your interstellar destination 4) en route, slowly use part of your ocean as propellant, while living inside the rest of it as shielding

        • mrnotcrazy 42 minutes ago
          What is a GRB?
          • marricks 38 minutes ago
            Gamma Ray Burst

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-ray_burst :

            > (GRBs) are extremely energetic events occurring in distant galaxies that represent the brightest and most powerful class of explosion in the Universe.

            > The sources of most GRB are billions of light years away from Earth, implying that the explosions are both extremely energetic (a typical burst releases as much energy in a few seconds as the Sun will in its entire 10-billion-year lifetime)[11] and extremely rare (a few per galaxy per million years).

            > All in all, a GRB within a few kiloparsecs, with its energy directed towards Earth, will mostly damage life by raising the UV levels during the burst itself and for a few years thereafter.

            I'm guessing without an atmosphere protecting a ship it'd be a bit worse? But it's like winning a very bad lottery to get hit by one. I guess if you're traveling thousands of years in deep sleep odds get higher?

          • philk10 36 minutes ago
            Gamma-ray burst
        • marcusverus 44 minutes ago
          The solution to this problem is straightforward, isn't it? Just add mass. Propulsion is the technological bottleneck.
    • cdelsolar 35 minutes ago
      It wouldn’t be that fun to live on one. The article says picture paradise, but we’re talking about potentially 1.5-2g with a dense atmosphere; we’d feel terrible all the time. Also whatever biology is in that planet is probably not compatible with us; we likely wouldn’t be able to eat it. Finally once you land, you’re screwed and stuck there. Traditional chemical propellants barely work for our planet, we’d need new ways of taking off for higher escape velocities.
    • bilbo0s 59 minutes ago
      >given what we know about physics at the present?

      No.

      My hypothesis has always been, hey, have enough kids out there, and sooner or later, they'll learn enough about the physical sciences to at least explore far away worlds. (If not go there in person.)

      But yeah, expecting we can get there with what we currently know is a bit naive. We need to, <gasp>, horror of horrors, fund more research.

      • bluGill 40 minutes ago
        Space is really big. We might be able to get a probe someplace, but can't get data back. We don't even have the ability to detect a civilization as advanced as us at the nearest star (only 4 light years away, but probably can't support life as we know it) if they put all their resources into sending us a message, and we spend all our resources to look at the right moment.

        There are laws of radio propagation that mean I doubt we ever will.

        In turn this means a probe needs to get there, and then come back. That is a lot of energy...

        I can't say it is impossible, but it is highly unlikely the laws of physics will ever give us a loop hole big enough to pull this off.

  • catigula 36 minutes ago
    Any anthropic observation requires merely a satisficing condition, which generally means that most requisite conditions are not optimal, including consciousness :)
  • ck2 3 minutes ago
    note that Musk, DOGE et al has completely defunded the Habitable Worlds Observatory Space Telescope

    it was slated for 2040 as the successor to Roman Space Telescope

    now that will never happen, at least not my lifetime

    HWO would be able to directly image worlds the size of earth

    (Roman cannot, only massive uninhabitable worlds)

  • ubermonkey 1 hour ago
    I mean, could be!

    But also irrelevant.

  • freecodeio 1 hour ago
    > Thanks for reading The Times.

    > Create your free account or log in to continue reading.

    my brother in Christ I just barely read the title

    • nilamo 10 minutes ago
      And you'd better be fucking thankful you were allowed even that much, you filthy pleb.

        - what I assume every org with a site like this's management thinks