Doesn't the Linux kernel encourage reporting on the public mailing list for kernel vulnerabilities that were found using AI? If I remember correctly they introduced that policy after the security mailing list got swamped with multiple reports for the same vulnerabilities
It is very interesting that they believe AI will find different bugs than people. That is, if you found a bug with AI the expectation is that others could find the same bug easily. But if you find it yourself, it is somehow more of a sensitive secret.
I do not imagine that things divide so clearly along these lines.
Probably not a clear divide, but it might be some kind of divide, and it might be the opposite of intuition.
The big advantage the LLMs have is their huge context windows, ability to parallelize and delegate, and no attention fatigue or need to sleep. They can think about random combinations of functions and modules all day long until they find a combination that's exploitable. That's hard for a person to do, and its the kind of exploit that probably would never be found otherwise except by another llm-powered thing. Not being a security expert myself, I gather that these AI vulns tend to be small needles in very large haystacks that normal people just would never have the patience to search.
But if you found something yourself, then it's something that's simple enough and involves a small enough number of moving parts that you can keep it in your head all at once and recognize the problem and correctly reason about its consequneces, which probably means it's easier to exploit, and therefore more dangerous if made public.
It feels a little backwards, and it might still be backwards, but if there's any benefit i think it's along those lines.
The policy is based on what is actually occurring. The Linux security team has had a flood of duplicate reports from AI, so they changed their policy to request that security bugs found by AI be reported on public mailing lists to avoid duplicates. They have not yet seen the same for human found bugs, so the old policy remains in place. It is likely that at some point in the future the AI discovered bugs will be a superset of human discovered ones, but for now humans and AI seem to be better at finding different types of bugs. When/if it does happen, the number of human bugs will taper off to nothing because AI will find them all first, so the policy change will take care of itself.
It's a shared tool so it coming to similar conclusions across users wouldn't be unexpected. Like if it were a scanner you could run to find common security problems, you would treat those as public since anyone could just run the scanner.
You are misrepresenting the premise. The premise is "if you found a bug with a COTS toolkit, others using the same toolkit may also find this bug easily". The second assumption is that many people are using the same COTS toolkit, which seems uncontested in my eyes as there's only a handful models in wide circulation.
I agree with this comment. Feels to me like they thought every prompt was "find the bug here," but in reality a lot of people put interesting context or original thoughts into their workflow with LLMs.
I don't think AI is of much concern, if you actually have a valid security issue.
No-one, really will care if you discovered it via AI or otherwise. Because, the weight of the bug itself should outweight other concerns. This is how professional security works. There will always be one concern or the other about a bug but what carries more weight will determine the direction that the disclosure process takes.
A valid security bug, by itself should carry enough technical weight that concerns about whether it was discovered through AI or otherwise should become irrelevant.
Anyways, it mostly seems like people don't really care much about computer security at Linux. I would like to think they care more about infrastructure and related security issues because, well, if my computer is an open book, then why would security issues around it be a concern?
>A valid security bug, by itself should carry enough technical weight that concerns about whether it was discovered through AI or otherwise should become irrelevant.
that's not really what the policy is about.
the thinking behind the policy is that if you found it via AI, other people can trivially find it via AI. that is why AI-found bugs are treated as public from the start.
My sinister side wonders if part of it could be that if you found it via AI but it turns out to be a hallucination, then you must accept the public ridicule for not thoroughly vetting the AI output.
As it should. If an LLM discovered them you should assume that another LLM, or another person running the same LLM, could find them. They are effectively public already.
No. I have an LLM and didn't discover it. Folks in HR have LLMs but can't produce the same software you can. Just because an LLM could discover it does not mean that it has been discovered yet. Responsible disclosure is still a valuable thing.
are you actively pointing your LLM at the kernel to identify security bugs?
the policy wasn't made on a whim. to quote the linux security team: "bugs discovered this way [via ai] systematically surface simultaneously across multiple researchers, often on the same day."
>Responsible disclosure
the term responsible disclosure is a silly thing made up by vendors.
> are you actively pointing your LLM at the kernel to identify security bugs?
I am not actively pointing my LLM at the kernel in the specific way that would uncover these bugs, and just because it's possible to do so doesn't mean that it has happened already.
> the policy wasn't made on a whim. to quote the linux security team [...]
Great, so let the ones that arise simultaneously do so. What does that have to do with immediately publicizing a vulnerability, regardless of severity, just because an LLM was involved in its discovery?
> the term responsible disclosure is a silly thing made up by vendors
That's certainly an opinion you're welcome to have, but unless you are proposing that responsibility and disclosure are two orthogonal concepts I don't see what that opinion has to do with anything I've said.
Still bleary eyed, but: Most severe ones are in SMB and KSMBD, which apparently have implementations in kernel space. I think this doesn't impact anyone not using KMB.
Others are LPEs, but two have been deleted by now, so can't be sure of the details.
TrendMicro's site opens up with a big big "Advancing AI-Native Security with Anthropic". Which checks out I guess.
Like when graphics stack and drivers were "imported" into the WinNT kernel as an optimization for the user-space version. And thus began 30 years of "another week, another graphics subsystem crash/vuln".
Indeed. These are gigantic mistakes. The quest for performance is diametrically opposed to having a secure system. There will always be a price, sometimes a big one for having a system that enforces proper boundaries. In my opinion: if something can be a process then it should be a process.
My goodness you don't like AI very much at all do you.
Does the security flaw exist or not?
I've always been one for immediate release of any security flaw the second it is found.
"But, people will get hurt or lose money that way"
Correct, they will understand the risk of using computer systems. Because we've hidden all the flaws under a mask of responsible disclosure people really don't understand the dangers we've subjected ourselves to by writing a bunch of bug filled bullshit code and instead we pretend like we have a handle on the situation.
WE DO NOT. If AI has proven anything it's how all of our code is a giant stack of cards waiting till collapse. And it proves humans will never learn, we'll just use the AI to pump out more shitty bug filled code.
It's all fun and games until someone crashes the electrical grid via bugs, or a major incident on the banking system. Human love to write regulations in blood because we're incapable of doing anything correctly before a bunch of people die.
> If you resorted to AI assistance to identify a bug, you must treat it as public. https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/...
I do not imagine that things divide so clearly along these lines.
The big advantage the LLMs have is their huge context windows, ability to parallelize and delegate, and no attention fatigue or need to sleep. They can think about random combinations of functions and modules all day long until they find a combination that's exploitable. That's hard for a person to do, and its the kind of exploit that probably would never be found otherwise except by another llm-powered thing. Not being a security expert myself, I gather that these AI vulns tend to be small needles in very large haystacks that normal people just would never have the patience to search.
But if you found something yourself, then it's something that's simple enough and involves a small enough number of moving parts that you can keep it in your head all at once and recognize the problem and correctly reason about its consequneces, which probably means it's easier to exploit, and therefore more dangerous if made public.
It feels a little backwards, and it might still be backwards, but if there's any benefit i think it's along those lines.
No-one, really will care if you discovered it via AI or otherwise. Because, the weight of the bug itself should outweight other concerns. This is how professional security works. There will always be one concern or the other about a bug but what carries more weight will determine the direction that the disclosure process takes.
A valid security bug, by itself should carry enough technical weight that concerns about whether it was discovered through AI or otherwise should become irrelevant.
Anyways, it mostly seems like people don't really care much about computer security at Linux. I would like to think they care more about infrastructure and related security issues because, well, if my computer is an open book, then why would security issues around it be a concern?
Anyways...
Enough said here - lol
that's not really what the policy is about.
the thinking behind the policy is that if you found it via AI, other people can trivially find it via AI. that is why AI-found bugs are treated as public from the start.
But, for one reason the other, they might give credit to a vulnerability they find interesting.
are you actively pointing your LLM at the kernel to identify security bugs?
the policy wasn't made on a whim. to quote the linux security team: "bugs discovered this way [via ai] systematically surface simultaneously across multiple researchers, often on the same day."
>Responsible disclosure
the term responsible disclosure is a silly thing made up by vendors.
I am not actively pointing my LLM at the kernel in the specific way that would uncover these bugs, and just because it's possible to do so doesn't mean that it has happened already.
> the policy wasn't made on a whim. to quote the linux security team [...]
Great, so let the ones that arise simultaneously do so. What does that have to do with immediately publicizing a vulnerability, regardless of severity, just because an LLM was involved in its discovery?
> the term responsible disclosure is a silly thing made up by vendors
That's certainly an opinion you're welcome to have, but unless you are proposing that responsibility and disclosure are two orthogonal concepts I don't see what that opinion has to do with anything I've said.
Others are LPEs, but two have been deleted by now, so can't be sure of the details.
TrendMicro's site opens up with a big big "Advancing AI-Native Security with Anthropic". Which checks out I guess.
Now, the question is can we make some kind of formal verification language that forces checks everything and doesn't allow bugs? Maybe?
But that's assuming the underlying hardware and firmware doesn't have flaws that can break those assumptions too.
With complex systems there are too many failure modes, and with "vibe coding" institutional negligence it is simply degenerative.
There are theoretical workarounds to LLM brute force scans, but they are not free to build. =3
But they have also disabled Linux as one of the products that they work with.
The boss class are rich because they're smart. /s
Fixed that for you
There are network mount options (also include ssh support)
https://rclone.org/install/
And SSH access and remote IFS NFS drive mount to host with winget:
# Run PowerShell as an Administrator.
Get-WindowsCapability -Online | Where-Object Name -like 'OpenSSH*'
# Install the OpenSSH Client
Add-WindowsCapability -Online -Name OpenSSH.Client~~~~0.0.1.0
# Install the OpenSSH Server
Add-WindowsCapability -Online -Name OpenSSH.Server~~~~0.0.1.0
Start-Service sshd
Set-Service -Name sshd -StartupType 'Automatic'
# Only allow local or VPN host server access
New-NetFirewallRule -Name sshd -DisplayName 'OpenSSH Server (sshd)' -Enabled True -Direction Inbound -Protocol TCP -Action Allow -LocalPort 22 -RemoteAddress 192.168.1.0/24
winget install frequency403.OpenSSHGUI
winget install -h -e --id "WinFsp.WinFsp"
winget install -h -e --id "SSHFS-Win.SSHFS-Win"
winget install -h -e evsar3.sshfs-win-manager
#As administrator in power shell run to manage ssh keys:
OpenSSH-GUI-win-x64
And free/paid apps for your phone to sync your files automatically over SFTP.
https://filezilla-project.org/download.php?show_all=1
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cz.bukacek.fil...
https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/photosync-transfer-photos/id41...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.touchbyte....
Stop using SMB, it was always broken on Windows and Linux. =3
I feel paranoid enough now to blame ai companies to try to induce panic and proclaim "buy our product to save yourself"
Does the security flaw exist or not?
I've always been one for immediate release of any security flaw the second it is found.
"But, people will get hurt or lose money that way"
Correct, they will understand the risk of using computer systems. Because we've hidden all the flaws under a mask of responsible disclosure people really don't understand the dangers we've subjected ourselves to by writing a bunch of bug filled bullshit code and instead we pretend like we have a handle on the situation.
WE DO NOT. If AI has proven anything it's how all of our code is a giant stack of cards waiting till collapse. And it proves humans will never learn, we'll just use the AI to pump out more shitty bug filled code.
It's all fun and games until someone crashes the electrical grid via bugs, or a major incident on the banking system. Human love to write regulations in blood because we're incapable of doing anything correctly before a bunch of people die.
It probably just happens that the security concerns at ZDI don't match the security concerns at Linux(the vendor).
So, it turns out that this vendor is difficult to work with ....
I mean - heh
This is like saying "Linux source code leaked"